"Boys will be boys"

[Amber76]

to think that the above is not an excuse for rough behaviour?

I have a 4 year old girl and an 18 month old boy. So far I've noticed little difference in the way they are and how they play. They've never wrestled each other but maybe he's a bit young. But I have never seen my girl try to wrestle another child - its just not something that has come up so far.

But we have a friend who has two young boys who are constantly play fighting and it can get very rough (things being knocked over in the house, my kids getting bumped into, etc.). They are constantly trying to kick or hit each other. My friend explains the very boisterous behaviour by just saying that all boys are like that. I don't agree and think it is a lazy excuse for bad behaviour. But I've also heard the same line trotted out at play groups and at birthday parties in relation to boys play fighting and trying to "kill" each other.

I am pregnant again and suspect it is a boy so am I going to have two little boys constantly wrestling each other for the next few years? Is this inevitable?!

YANBU

I'm afraid I'm still at the "You've only got one child and he's 2, what do you know?" stage, so I appreciate we may have a lot to learn.

Our son certainly doesn't wrestle or fight so far. He's an only/oldest child and we don't play roughly with him. Even when we tickle him we make sure we pause regularly and let him ask for more if he wants them.

Both of the children I know who regularly pounce on my DS (one male, one female) play rough housing games with their parents. Sometimes they try to initiate a game, and other times its clear they just want to push him around because they are in that kind of a mood. Both now have smaller siblings so their parents are having to teach them rules about being careful with younger siblings.

I'm not saying btw that my pfb is a well behaved angel, he's very focused on what he wants to do so will grab a toy he wants or barge past kids on his way to something he wants but with no malice towards them. They are just obstacles - he'll also shove things out of his way. We are trying to teach him to be aware of other people and things and to go round them not through them! And not to grab.

Here's a song we used to sing (to a slightly different tune) in the old days.

mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=889

BOYS WILL BE BOYS
(Leon Rosselson)

Boys will be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls will grow up to be mothers

Look at little Peter, isn't he a terror?
Shooting all the neighbors with his cowboy gun
Screaming like a jet plane, always throwing something
I just can't control him. Trouble - he's the one.

Ah but boys will be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls will grow up to be mothers

Look at little Janie, Doesn't she look pretty?
Playing with her dolly, proper little mum
Never getting dirty, never being naughty
Don't punch your sister Peter, now look at what you've done

Ah but boys will be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls will grow up to be mothers

What's come over Janie, Janie's turning nasty
Left hook to the body, right hook in the eye
Vicious little hussy, now Peter's started bawling
What a bloody sissy, who said you could cry

Because boys must be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls must grow up to be mothers

Now things are topsy turvy. Janie wants a football
Peter just seems happy pushing prams along
Makes you feel so guilty. Kids are such a worry
Doctor, doctor, tell me, where did we go wrong

Because boys must be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls must grow up to be mothers

Copyright Leon Rosselson
@feminist @kids
recorded by Frankie Armstrong on The Music Plays So Grand
filename[ BOYBEBOY
TUNE FILE: BOYBEBOY
CLICK TO PLAY
SOF

Play

My DS loves rough and tumble -think body rolls, belly kisses and snuggles.(16 months). However, I do not condone punching, hitting, kicking or biting. I immediately take him out of any situation that might escalate with another child and encourage him to use "gentle hands" when touching other children and animals. He is big and strong for his age, so the sooner he learns to think about others, the better.

Both his father and uncle loved to wrestle, so it's in the family. If I have another child (boy or girl), I suspect wrestling will be inevitable.

There is a world of difference between respectful play fighting and physical violence. Boys do seem to be noisier and more active, but that does excuse being hurtful.

We've always treated our children differently - from each other, from other children, at different times of the day or month ...

But yes, I treat my little grandson differently from his sister and cousins. Because he's a boy. He is different. He has a male brain, and he's going to grow up into a man. He'll probably be bigger than the rest of us, and stronger. So anger management is something I try to teach all of them - but him in particular. (Yes, I know that a lot of women lose control in front of their kids. It's just that generally they do less damage when they go ballistic). We show the kids by example, give them strategies for coping, etc. And respect and consideration. And to be kind.

As for guns for boys ... 'Here you are, son. Go away and practise for the day you become a mass murderer.' Why not give them a toy syringe so that they can play at being drug addicts?

We never gave our sons guns, and they didn't feel they had to make pretend ones out of sticks, as people say. They played plenty of exciting hiding and chasing games, but they never felt they needed to shoot at each other.

It drives me mad to see all those pink things in toy shops for girls, especially the revolting, misshapen Barbie dolls. And don't get me started on the Disney princesses, with their insipid smiles and baby eyes. Ugh!

I always say something to the owner, btw. It does rather limit my choices to books and colouring sets though.

I have a friend who has a very boisterous boy, well...she says boisterous, I say badly behaved. My DS doesn't like playing with him because he's loud and in your face and generally just quite unpleasant and the Mum is pretty useless TBH, I don't buy " he's just a typical boy".

All other boys of similar age within my group of friends (large NCT group) are all fine...well behaved and, while they may bicker over a toy,this does not degenerate into violence unless unpleasant boy initiates it and usually it's just him.

In my experience, nurture not nature appears to prevail.

I can't stand this expression, which is just an excuse for bad behaviour. I believe that the majority of gender differences are socially constructed rather than genetic. Not all, but most. It would appear that there is a certain competitiveness/aggression that is associated with testosterone, which is often cited as the reason males play more fighting games, etc. But testosterone is also present in women and I see plenty of women who are just as competitive as men in their own way - the differences tend to be the expression of that competitiveness and that is what I think it socially constructed by family, peers and wider society at large - particularly media and especially advertising.

My three boys loved play fighting when they were small & still do it occasionally now, in their late teens. They know there's a time & a place for it, and they are not in the least bit violent or badly behaved. It seems to be a way in which they express their affection for each other

Boys are not all the same
However I do feel sorry for boys who are never allowed to be boys.

It's best to allow a little of all behaviours and let the child see the reactions of others .

I think it's sad that kids are like trained pets rather than individuals.

Best compliment I got at a parents evening was several teachers not knowing our 3 boys were brothers.

I have three boys and I was ill prepared (still am) for the boisterousness of my first.

He is 4 and just wild. A physical whirlwind. He chases around doing all these "Ben 10" moves and making these noises - and he has NEVER ONCE seen the stupid "Ben 10" programme. He has played it with a boy at nursery who I'm guessing has, but it literally irritates me a huge amount that he engages in it.

He is not allowed to be rough, it is not expected of him, I don't allow it, laugh at it or tolerate it. I feel my whole body tense when playfighting begins. Sometimes I wish I could be slightly more tolerant of it as I know I can be TOO much on edge with it and sometimes that doesn't help matters.

Believe me, we do NOT encourage gender stereotyping in our home, and he doesn't live it, either. He is as likely to be playing Sophia the First or with Doc McStuffins as he is to be throwing shapes as a Ben 10 character, and he has a very wide and broad range of play interests.... yet the physicality of his play at points remains difficult for me. I just wasn't expecting the sheer level of insane energy that emanates from him or how aggressive and rough it can sometimes be.

Now, yes, a girl might have the same proclivities... but I believe they wouldn't be fostered or tended to by the wider culture, nor would the tendency be allowed by so many people outside of our immediate family - grannies and nursery workers etc. So whether I believe "boys will be boys" or not is, in my mind, somewhat irrelevant. I have not been the only influence on my boy's development, even at four. He very consistently gets the message from me that we don't want this stuff and it won't be tolerated.. but that hasn't stopped him having an interest and inclination in playing this way.

I think it's too simple to talk about nature and nurture. I can fully believe most of this stuff is socially constructed, I'm just not sure if you have a child who spends any time out of the home that you can control it if they have a natural tendency to be more boisterous that is reinforced by social expectations. For the second two years of his life, he was at nursery 7-7 four days a week. I do think they let him away with all sorts of low level roughness because "boys will be boys" and I regret it, but I didn't see it at the time. Parents don't always have as much control as that. We're working on it... and actually, he's generally okay with others.. but I'd love to find a better outlet for his intense desire for physical play.

crje, "Never allowed to be boys." ? That's what's so annoying about the phrase in the OP. Are boys not being boys if they're not rough? Are girls being boys if they are rough? No, girls are girls and boys are boys and they're all different like you say. Drop the gender assumptions and just decide to what extent you want to let your children roughhouse.

We were at Warwick castle today so many children with wooden swords, daggers, bow and arrows all play fighting very good natured was lovely to see.
Mine always 'made guns etc' with sticks etc something I have never loved, I discouraged it however I couldn't beat him so I joined him he has mountains of weapons now but knows to be gentle. Not bad behaviour but fascinated by all things wrestling, fighting and war does not watch age inappropriate films TV etc.

All children should be allowed to be themselves within the confines of what is acceptable by wider society and with the caveat that mistakes are allowed because they're learning. That doesn't translate in my book as allowing boys the right to play-fight to the extent where things get broken and they hurt each other. That's not acceptable behaviour as an adult so should be made very clear it's unacceptable in children too.

My DC play-fight and I don't have a problem with it provided they wrestle rather than punch and that it's not in an inappropriate setting. Being very physical is one thing but it's not the same thing as aggression even when competitive.

Duplodon - if your DS is only four, he will improve massively. My DS went through a very similar process (and isn't completely reliable now either), but if you keep up the attempts to control it and impose acceptable boundaries on the limits of that boisterous behaviour, it does settle down. But that's the precise opposite of excusing it with "boys will be boys".

i'm not a fan of fighting and i DO thing the above statement by the op is a lame excuse for - frankly- lazy parenting

I have lots of boys - i know

"I think it's sad that kids are like trained pets rather than individuals."

I don't even get this, are there people training their kids to fall into line like the von Trapp family or something? I know absolutely no one who trains their kids to be automatons or clones of each other.

I think there are a lot of people on this thread who seem to be confusing wrestling / playfighting / some physical play / rough and tumble, with bad behaviour.
I have one ds and two dds, and all of them have partaken in bouts of wrestling / playfighting etc at various times in their growing up - perfectly normal behaviour. None of them have grown up to be violent or aggressive people, all of them understand about personal space, each person's right to say 'no' or 'stop it', but that there can still be a lot of fun to be had in either a tickle fight or a game of garden/park rugby when it's appropriate.
I'd say that's good parenting, not lazy

BackforGood - perfectly put, and I agree with every word.

Bckforgood - I think that's because the excuse "boys will be boys" is used predominately in a context where someone has got hurt or something has got broken as a result of uncontrolled play-fighting or physical play that's spilled out into a wider context, e.g. after playing sport or running around soft play or wrestling with friends (anything high energy) g a parent excuses another child getting hurt 10 minutes later with"oh he didn't mean to hurt your DS but he's still hyped up and boys will be boys..."

I loved play fighting/wrestling and my db didn't.

I don't like the 'boys will be boys' line being touted out to excuse bad behaviour. I've two boys and two girls (now young adults) and I've been shocked at how my naturally very placid and non aggressive boys enjoyed play fighting whilst my girls didn't like it so much. I think it's inherent in their nature but I know MN doesn't agree

I play fight but my DH doesn't so it's not as though we set a bad example.

I think it's sad that kids are like trained pets rather than individuals.

Lol, there goes my parenting technique - I've always said raising kids is like having a dog - exercise, food, affection, clear boundaries, let them know who's boss and more excercise. possibly deworm them from time to time too

Oh well, it worked for me.

I was the middle child of 3 boys. My younger brother and I used to wrestle and punch each other (courteously avoiding each other's head) constantly. We also used to play "dodge the brick" where one person would swing on the swings whilst the other chucked a brick towards the person swinging who then had to try and contort out of the way. That game ended in tears for me after months of fairly event free playing.

We are both very easy going peaceful men now!

Totally agree with you BackforGood. I have a boy and girl, 16 months apart, and as ds is slight and dd tall and solid they were very well matched so I didn't intervene when they played physical games/ wrestled each other. If they wanted to cuddle up together that was fine by me too (they quite often end up in bed together if one of them has bad dreams or wants to chat about their issues/be counseled by the other one).

I don't really understand the jumping on rough play. Maybe because I am quite a relaxed /hands off parent but mostly because it looks like lots of fun. They were and continue to be very close (now in their teens) and I think that having relatively few parentaly imposed boundaries helped because they figured out that sort of thing themselves. Of course if there was an issue of them hurting each other it would have been different.

Interestingly dd has never really played roughly at school/ with friends whereas ds did, dd on the other hand hugged/cuddled her friends and ds didn't. To me both behaviours are almost certainly socialisation at work, and rather sad really - why shouldn't girls play fight and boys hug?

My friend and I were talking about this last night. I definitely believe that our society has begun to glorify the image of tough little boys being loud and playing roughly. Gentle boys who don't conform are told they need to "toughen up". I was out with friends the other day and one mother was telling off her son for crying because another boy had pushed him over - the mother of the other boy just rolled her eyes at her son.

There is also huge expectation for boys to be good at (and enjoy) competitive team sports and it becomes very difficult for them to be accepted by other boys if they don't.

Not all boys are like that and why should they be? We need to encourage our children to respect the different ways of being a boy and we need to think about the way we want our boys to behave as men. There are too many angry, arrogant, violent, young men around. Childhood is the time to teach them how to control their behaviour and their prejudices.

Not all boys are like this but many are. Ds1 needs no encouragement (he's just turned 7) and would love to play rough much more than he does. But I don't really allow it because it always seems to go too far. Many of his friends like to rough house and it's very hard keeping a lid on it during play dates, especially if the other child is allowed to do it at home. Ds2 is only 7 months so I don't know about him yet, but dd is 4.5 and she isn't in to play fighting. I suspect if she was a willing participant it would be going on a lot more here.

A friend of mine always says "he's just being a boy", "that's what boys do", or if her daughter plays rough "you're not a boy!" I don't like excusing bad behaviour by saying "boys will be boys." I encourage ds1 to be gentle and kind but he usually gets swept along with all the boys playing roughly because naturally that's what he gravitates to. I certainly don't encourage it though.

Banging my head against the wall at the martyrdom that is exhibited here.

This is precisely why there is so much maternal guilt around, as everyone tries to outdo each other over the sacrifices they have made.

It's like the 4 Yorkshireman .......... I sleep on nails just so my children know I will always put their comfort first.

Getting your eyebrows done does not inflict emotional harm on your children, or mean that you don't love them.

Families should be a team where everyone pulls together and children learn that life doesn't revolve around them and things don't justification out of thin air.

Also that, as a mother, you have just as much right to take your turn at the front of the flock every now and again.