to refuse to pay for DD's train ticket to see her mum?

[niceguy2]

DD is 18 now and recently told her mum that she didn't want to go up alternate weekends anymore since she's got a job/BF/social life. Fair enough. We all knew that day would come eventually. Instead she'd go up as & when she had time.

But DS(13) also used to go up on the train with my daughter. So ex & I had a row "discussion" about how DS could continue to have contact and the compromise was that DS would now go up during school holidays instead of alternate weekends. I would take him up and ex would return him.

Still with me so far? Hopefully. Well I just took DS up yesterday and it cost me over £50 in train tickets. DD has decided that she will go up this weekend and that cost will be over £20. Would I be unreasonable to say to my DD & ex that I am not paying for the £20 and that she (ex) should?

Reason is that I know my ex and she will simply send DS back with DD on the train. Saving herself all the money that Ive had to spend. Plus I don't see why I should have to pay over £70 to send the kids up to see her when the only effort she's made is to drive 20 mins to the nearest train station.

Guess at the end of the day it's not about the money. It's the principle. I'm tired of subsidising her to have access to her own kids and somehow being made to feel guilty about it.

If she can drive to the train station, why can't she just drive to pick the kids up? Does she pay child support?

Frankly, I don't see any reason why the OP should pay anything for the kids to visit their mother. They live with him, thus he pays the majority of their expenses and does the majority of their care. If the OP wants to help, fine, but it shouldn't fall on him to make sure she sees her kids. If she won't go to the trouble, is the relationship with her really beneficial to the kids?

Too many holes in OP's account.
What, specifically, are the holes that you see? I don't see any.

what about coach for your DD? often cheaper

I would let it go this time. It's the first time the new arrangement has been put to the test, so chalk it up to experience. But make sure you, ex, and dd are on the same page. Ds will probably enjoy the independence of a direct train by himself, but make sure neither you nor your ex put the money issue into play when buying tickets.

Ds will probably enjoy the independence of a direct train by himself but it's not direct train, it could be but dm doesn't want the hassle of a 40 min drive, so there is a change involved which neither parent are happy with him doing alone

Holes = the back story. How did it end up that kids lived with dad (not the usual result back in the day); why did OP move away from ex with their kids; was there a custody battle (did ex fight for residency); or did ex hand over kids to dad. Etc.

Did she put them on the train with no ticket because she didn't have the money to pay the fare.

Did she get a cheap holiday eg staying with friends.

Did she move for work.

Does OP castigate ex and expect posters to pile in (looks like it).

OP - sending hugs. From what I remember of your previous threads I suspect that actually it isn't about the ticket. I is the relentless, endless grinding down while you try and protect your kids, do all the support, pick up all the slack and now finally this is the final straw on top of it all.

I think it is time for a careful but clear talk with your daughter to explain that these are all the costs you face, these are the limits on your time, this is the reality, together you need a way to make sure that she and her brother get to see their mother if they want to.

It isn't unreasonable to want the other parent to care in the same way you do, but I think that the ticket is the spark and not the powder keg.

Good luck

At 18 I was a student and I lived away from home. If I wanted to visit my parents I paid for it. Same should apply here. I had a rail card and bought in advance where possible.

Mumsnet confuses me sometimes, I'm sure if the OP was a woman it'd be a very different story in the comments.....

SpringyDaff. Not really sure why you feel you need answers on the various 'holes' you feel you have uncovered but let me see if I can answer them.

1. Ex has as much contact as she wants. My resistance is over the cost of the travel for DD. We've got agreement on DS and I'm sticking by that albeit I'm not 100% happy with it. Neither will she be but that is the art of compromise.

2. Afford is a relative thing. Can I afford it? Yes if I cut back on other areas. Can ex afford it. Ditto. Despite her procrastinations she's not on the poverty line and can afford an £8 train ticket a fortnight. She just doesn't feel like she should have to which is exactly how I feel, except my tickets cost £50 a trip.

3. Does she pay maintenance? Yes, sort of. The amount she pays me is less than what I spend on train tickets.

If you think I'm not acting in the best interests of the kids and thinking of things from my point of view more then you are partially correct. But you need to consider this.

For my son who is 13 I'm still taking the parenting role and not airing this in front of him. My DD is no longer a child and so at what point do I stop subsidising my ex seeing her kids? Turning it the other way around makes it sound prettier but neatly ignores the fact that it is still me who is putting all the time/effort & cost to facilitate contact whilst she isn't sharing anywhere near the same.

Let me try to sum this up. The cost to her to see the kids is pretty minimal. The time/effort it would take for her is also much less. Yet she's refusing to do this and instead has chosen to see DS less rather than drive 40 mins to meet him. Under my original suggestions, the lion share of the cost still fell on me.

Yet somehow I'm the one being accused of not having my kids best interests at heart? Seriously?

The reasons why the children live with their father rather than mother are irrelevant in my opinion. I don't need to have NiceGuy's life story to have an opinion on fair travel arrangements. On the basis of what he's said, HINBU. I do think it's potentially worthwhile doing more than his fair share until the children reach 18. I'm not sure who should pay for DD's transport, who'd pay if she was going to visit friends of other family? It wouldn't seem fair to me if she had to spend all her Saturday job wages to see her mother. If she's getting some sort of an allowance from her parents, I think it's reasonable she pays/contributes to her travel.

springydaffs, we never have all the information. There will always be two sides of a story, and we only hear it from the OP's POV.

However, it does often seem on MN, that a mother is given the benefit of the doubt, in a way that a father often isn't.

I do get that it rankles, niceguy that you are paying out and making up for the shortfall in what your ex will pay, but I think you need to separate the issue of your DS's travel costs from your DD's.

Your DD is old enough to budget travel for herself - give her an allowance, and let her decide how to spend it. Your ex will then be in a position to make up any shortfall, if she wants to do so.

I think you are doing the right thing by paying for your DS's travel, as it seems your ex either won't or can't. Soon your DS will able to make the trip alone, and when he is the same age as your DD, you can look at his circumstances, to see what is needed.

YANBU.

IMO, your DD is an adult. Yes, she's a student, so doesn't have loads of money - if your EHW wants to see her, she should be stumping up to do so.

If you put your DS on the direct train would she be there to collect him, or is she likely to just not pick him up?

Niceguy2 you are nbu. A lot of the posters here see things through rise tinted spectacles and having been there, I guess much of this issue is down to your ex trying to get some control over you.
In your shoes, I wouldn't pay for DD and I would offer once more the option of the direct train for DS and tell her that if she refuses then she will have to collect him from the house if she wants contact.

Springdaff it is absolutely none of your business why the OP has RP. Plenty of fathers, even back in the day, have RP, what concern of yours is it? You're being a bit of a moo, and tbh it sounds like you're bitter towards men. Leave the OP alone if you've a problem with it, just don't come on trying to be deliberately nasty to someone who's asking for advice.

In your shoes I'd offer a once a month ticket to both children return to the half way, direct route, 40 mins drive station. I'd scrap the entire school hols thing if she's not going to take any time off to spend with him.

I'd ensure that they have a return ticket and leave yours at a time that they can get on a train returning home if they have not been picked up within 30 mins of arrival.

Then, I'd agree which part of the school holidays DS will spend at her house and provided visit is of at least a 2 week duration, I would collect him in person and suck up the 50 assuming he has travelled there with his sister.

I'd commit to doing this for 2-3 yrs provided your DD remains in full-time education and chaperones her brother. After that, he will be more than old enough to travel by himself.

Your Ex sounds like a right lazy cow. My commiserations to your children, at least she's your Ex !.

For all of you saying the DD should pay, do you realise she's still a student? A bit harsh having to pay to see her mum I think Really?!
She is 18 and needs to start behaving/thinking like an adult. As an adult we have to recognise and prioritise our needs and save up for things we want. I bet she manages to afford nights out/makeup/shopping/socialising all whilst being a student and working? She needs to start taking responsibility for herself and her life now and i think saving up for her own train fare to see her mum is a good starting point.

OP, with regards your ds (and something to mention to your dd too), have you considered Megabus or National Express? I use Megabus regularly, you can book online, it's safe, has direct routes into city centres and if you book in advance you can get tickets from £8 one way - you can buy them as singles or return. Your dc would be able to use their student discount/concession on those fares too which would bring the price of even the cheapest ticket right down.
i use National Express Fun Fares too (from £8+), again booked online and direct routes into the city centres and sometimes they stop at designated bus stops in the town too.

They're worth checking out. Ignore the negative comments on here, we all know if you were a mum posting the same thing you'd get a very different reaction. Good luck

twizzle. Yes really.

Her parents chose to live miles apart, that's not her fault, so I think while she's in full time education it's reasonable for her parents to share the cost of her seeing her NPR once a month.

She's earning a little bit of money which she should be spending on herself, not paying to see her own mum when it's not the DD that moved away. If the DD had chosen to move away, then fair enough, but she didn't.

"Ignore the negative comments on here, we all know if you were a mum posting the same thing you'd get a very different reaction. Good luck"

I have no idea if this is true in general, but my comments would be exactly the same. It makes no difference.

I don't know what you should do this time, I would probably suck it up for the DC sake, though it would grate!

For the future, I don't think you both paying works well (her one way, you the other.) I would offer to pay for one full round trip a month for DS, and it would be the 'travel alone on the direct train that she needs to pick him up from' trip. I wouldn't be dicking about with a parent who clearly cant be arsed with her own kids. At 13 he wont be clueless about how shitty his mom is tbh! If she doesn't want to pick him up then she doesn't want to see him, you can help him deal with that. You have been more than reasonable.

I would offer the same to DD too whilst she is a student. Put her in charge of the situation. If she wants to see her mom she will be funded one round trip a month, if she doesn't want to then she doesn't have to, but you wont be in this position again.

babys answer seems fair.

I don't understand your OP in the light of this further comment:

Ha! Alternate paying!?! I could only DREAM of this. Back when I didn't pay, she used to put the kids on the train without a ticket

Your ex is definitely taking advantage of your good nature and she is being very unreasonable. But if you refuse to pay, your DD will be the one to suffer, not your ex, and you will appear to be the bad guy. Of course your ex should pay. But if she won't, what alternative do you have, really?

There is obviously a history to this family on here, previous threads, that I have't seen or read, and others are referring to. OP your OP presents a story that leaves out a hell of a lot. It was what has been left out that I have been asking questions about.

Just realised we're in AIBU! That makes sense then - I've been too long in relationships and didn't realise I'd drifted over here.

OK, she's the bad mommy and you're a good guy doing your best. (How anybody could've worked that out from your OP is anybody's guess)

Ah, just read your justification and you don't answer the questions I asked. One of which is was there a custody battle over the kids? Did ex fight to keep the kids. That#s just one question. Pretty central.

Your justification presents layer upon layer of justifying yourself and your goodguy status. I don't believe it, personally. If you were straight up you would have spelled out the background in your op. Instead you leap straight in slagging her off, present a heavily one-sided picture, and call the troops to back you up. Which they have. Why are you bothering with me when you have unanimous support?

It's fairly simple really. Generally the op is the good person and other Is feckless of some variety. Until op pisses off the thread responders at which point tables turn.

Currently ball is in play and op seems to be handling the game (here and RL) rather well.

Which troops are they springy? I'm taking this at face value, I don't really care about the backstory and I wasn't aware there was one.

At face value, this situation is massively unfair. She can't be arsed to make any effort and he's having to make up for that. As do many other single parents, yadda yadda - but he's perfectly justified in thinking 'why should I' imo.

You have been gunning for him from the beginning What's your point?

Really do not see what the original reasons for the childcare arrangements have to do with train tickets. Either parent wants to see kids or parent doesn't. If parent does surely parent pays and puts oneself out, within reason, to do so. Is this within reason? Imo no.