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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think she should have told the father about christening?

184 replies

Zippylovesrainbow · 20/10/2014 18:16

My friend had her son christened at the weekend... And didn't tell his father.
She says it's because they are in court over access.

I can't believe a vicar would do a service without the father present either! He isn't on the birth certificate, but he has rights as he applied for them via court.

It was a lovely day, but this has just ruined it, for me anyway. I know I'm probably being unreasonable, but I just feel that her sons special, religious day is now tarnished by a lie and deceit.

OP posts:
KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 10:56

I had my children christened and did not invite my x! why would I have done that? Like Diduit I'm not sure my x even knows (or cares).

I am their sole guardian. The idea that I should sought my x's permission is ridiculous. He is named on their bc.

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 13:44

I had my children christened and did not invite my x! why would I have done that?

Obversely - why wouldn't you have done that? No-one, on the face of it, knows the background of your story, any more than we know the background of the OP's friend (or the OP, if that's who it is). Story getting a bit confusing now Hmm

It is common for ex-partners to get on well, so it would seem odd to not invite an ex-partner (of either sex) to the Christening (or Baptism, or relevant religious ceremony of any faith).

DP and I are atheists, so if anyone in the family (or if DP suddenly 'found' a faith) had taken children off to be indoctrinated somehow without my knowledge, I would be beyond livid. We made the decision that our children would make their own choice, once they were old enough.

If an ex has no particular views, then I can understand some of the comments proffered, but what if he/she has? Then it is becomes morally wrong, IMV, to go ahead with such a ceremony without at least so much as a discussion on the subject. If both parents are of any strong religious persuasion, this surely becomes a decision to be agreed upon together, with both parents being involved, or having the choice to do so.

WakeyCakey45 · 22/10/2014 15:01

Gingerbread highlights that legislation says the "religion that a child is brought up in" should have the agreement of everyone with parental responsibility.

A Christening includes a commitment by the DCs parent to raise the child in the Christian faith (although I acknowledge that most people don't consider it in that way).

That's very far reaching even for the "I like to come on and intimidate lone parents with inaccurate statements about what courts will do" brigade.

Don't you think that making the decision and public commitment as what faith the child is to be raised in, without the agreement of a parent with PR, is a risky decision when there are ongoing court proceedings?

KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 15:06

EvansOval, you do realise that I said x don't you? We weren't married when I arranged a christening 'behind his back'. He has never gone to church.

I think it would be odd to arrange a christening and just wander off all dressed up one Sunday morning if still married though. That would be odd! But what did was all part and parcel of having split up. I don't know because I didn't ask but I suspect my x would have rolled his eyes and said something snide if he'd known I had them christened. So, I hope that gives you one person's answer to the question "why would I tell him?"
hth

WakeyCakey45 · 22/10/2014 15:14

But what did was all part and parcel of having split up.

But splitting up doesn't stop him being an equal parent to your DCs!

If he has PR, he has as much right as you do to influence the important decisions in their life (such as the religion they are brought up in). As the parent with primary care, you are responsible for day-to-day decisions - other issues - religion, medical procedures, education and other important issues (as set out in law) remain the responsibility of you both.

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 15:15

I would think, (only in my own personal view, which may be worth absolutely nothing at all, but this is what I would choose, if it were me):

If there is a court case going on, then surely it would be polite to wait until that court case is over before making a decision on the child's faith (a faith, incidentally, upon which the child appears to have no control over, at all; subject for another thread, maybe).

If a Court case is pending and one parent subjects child to some sort of religious indoctrination without the other parent's knowledge during that time, then that surely is using the child as a pawn in a stupid adult's tit-for-tat game (which adults are notoriously known for)

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 15:17

Klokkenvin - he is YOUR ex. He is not your child's ex. Surely he still has an opinion upon his child's upbringing?
HTH Confused

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 15:19

DP and I are not married - I would be absolutely furious if he took our children off to a religious "thing" to introduce them to a Faith without my knowledge. And vice versa!

KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 15:41

EvansOvalPiesYumYum, Confused are you making a bit of a leap there? Who said he was my child's x?! Not me. The arrangements we have work well for us now, and neither of us is complaining. He just plays no part in that (Faith/Church) part of their life.

So often couples split up precisely because they're not on the same page. That disconnect doesn't disappear after a split. If he had suddenly become reasonable after I'd left him, then I wouldn't have felt too uncomfortable/wary to mention it to him. I think some people live in a complete fantasy land where the gold star of parenting should be expected all the time, and strangers should have this high bar dangled in front of them! Where, if you just talk reasonably you'll be met with reason. I know that you can't make another person be reasonable.

Confused I'm well aware of how things would be in a perceived perfect world. And, of course, a perfect world is subjective. A christening is not something that everybody values. But as their sole guardian it was my decision and my right to have my children christened.

No doubt if you told me all about your family, there would be things that I would consider odd or ill-advised. I wouldn't tell you off though.

I think single parent families are under the microscope in this regard in a way that couple-families are protected from. Their way isn't necessarily better but it is certainly less scrutinised.

KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 15:45

"Klokkenvin - he is YOUR ex. He is not your child's ex. Surely he still has an opinion upon his child's upbringing?"

This post made me laugh. He has no shortage of opinions. He has opinions on everything. He is never hesitant to vocalise his opinion.

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 15:47

KlokkenVin Erm - I think it is acutally You who has made a bit of a leap. This thread (so I thought, and this is what I was joining in with) was about maternal and paternal Mothers and Fathers. Not ex's who are not the child's parent. That is surely an entirely different subject and irrelevant to this thread???

NeedsAsockamnesty · 22/10/2014 15:52

Not in my experiencewakey

its one of those in an ideal world mutual discussion would happen but in day to day practise in many situations does not. Obviously its a little different if baptism or religion is the subject before the court.

Its not unusual for parents who have a child baptised to have no intention of involvement with a church or if they do for a child to attend each parents church dependant on where the child is at the time.

A lot would also depend on if there was an existing agreement

KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 15:56

um, Biscuit you asked me a question in response to something I'd posted and I answered it. So the relevancy of my post is a nit to pick, especially as my experience was in exact parallel with the OP's friend.

You assumed that I consider my x my children's x and I had to correct you there as you were incorrect. Sorry if that offends you.

But now you are clear I hope.

DiaDuit · 22/10/2014 15:59

Evans i think you have misread klokkins post. She doesnt say her ex isnt the child's father.

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 16:03

Sorry - it appears that your post is absolutely nothing at all to do with what is being posted. You have posted opinions, people have replied, then you've come back with "not me - where have I said my ex was the father of child". That would actually be relevant in this particular conversation - as Father should have a say in his child's upbringing - you've given an example of a man who is not your child's father. Confused

I assumed nothing - merely commented on facts provided. If you withhold facts, then expect to be questioned. Not offended at all, BTW, just completely bewildered, as to why someone would post with intent to deceive.

Take your silly biscuit back Smile

WakeyCakey45 · 22/10/2014 16:04

The arrangements we have work well for us now, and neither of us is complaining. He just plays no part in that (Faith/Church) part of their life.

But as their sole guardian it was my decision and my right to have my children christened

The law disagrees. It was not your sole "right".

Everyone with parental responsibility has a right to have a voice in a DCs religious upbringing. Regardless of whether they play an active role in the DC life or not.

You and your ex may well have agreed that you will not consult him on such matters - but you leave yourself open to legal action should he decide that he fundamentally disagrees with a decision you have made.

KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 16:08

What? You deserve that biscuit. Eat the packet.

Who are you to dictate who can post what? I wonder about your reading and comprehension level as apart from this pointless argument with somebody whose reading and comprehension level is clearly very poor, everything that I've posted has been either a response to a question you asked, or what the OP's friend had done.

What facts did I withhold anyway? What facts was I obliged to disclose immediately? You assumed that my x wasn't involved as a father! I corrected you, that's all. No need to unravel.

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 16:11

Dia - thank you! I did misunderstand. It was cleverly misguided, though, I think many would agree!

Why do people post in code? Bizarre!!
If you want to say something, say it clearly, not under hidden cloak and dagger messages, for crying out loud!

KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 16:12

legally it was absolutely my right. He hasn't even got the right to a copy of the school report (although I send it to him because I'm decent like that). But lol at people who don't know what year my children were born or what country they were born in telling me that I have left myself open to legal action! My x has no legal rights but I give them to him anyway as the children have a right to see him. It is their right I'm honouring. He has no legal rights.

Fairenuff · 22/10/2014 16:12

It seemed clear enough to me.

KlokkenVin · 22/10/2014 16:15

Evans. Read the posts. That will really help.

WakeyCakey45 · 22/10/2014 16:19

klokken If your Ex does not have PR, then we are talking at cross-purposes.
I did prefix my earlier remarks with if he has PR .
You stated that he was on their birth certificate, And I misunderstood the significance of your remark.

Out of curiosity, are you in the UK? You refer to yourself as sole guardian - which isn't a term legally applied to parents in this country.

EvansOvalPiesYumYum · 22/10/2014 16:26

I stand corrected on the misunderstanding of the veiled comments Confused (still not taking the bloody biscuit though)!! Don't post cryptic comments.

In any event, this is not all about Klokken's own personal life. I really, genuinely did think the thread was to do with the OP's question (whether or not OP now turns out to be genuine). I also often post personal anecdotes to give an example of why I think what I think, but I don't drip-feed or misguide to lure other posters off into another realm of opinion that is entirely irrelevant.

WakeyCakey45 · 22/10/2014 16:27

Its not unusual for parents who have a child baptised to have no intention of involvement with a church

Never understood that, myself, tbh. Surely that's the whole point?

basgetti · 22/10/2014 16:28

You and your ex may well have agreed that you will not consult him on such matters - but you leave yourself open to legal action should he decide that he fundamentally disagrees with a decision you have made.

What legal action? The courts can't order a child be 'unchristened.' You appear to be posting with authority on this issue, but your views directly contradict the experience I had when this exact matter came before the court. If your posts are just supposition it would be helpful if you would make that clear rather than scaremongering without basis.