to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school?

[KirjavaTheCat]

DS is four and has just started reception. A couple of days ago, we were playing and he said something like "...and then we put our hands together without clapping like this, and shut our eyes and say, 'dear God' and then we say things"

I asked where he learned that and apparently they pray every morning. I find this odd because his class is made up of children from all different religious backgrounds, and it isn't a faith school. Why are they learning to worship?

We're not religious. I don't think I'm comfortable with him praying to 'God' every day. Should I say something? AIBU?

That's why I was shocked that it's being taught

But is it being taught, or is it just being done?

So far, your child has put his hands together and said some words to something he doesn't know or believe in.

Has the school also whipped out the Bible and given a blow by blow account of the Creation story?

At four, my children were taught about Hinduism. They have know for pretty much ever than their dad doesn't believe in God. These varied beliefs are something that they completely accept because they're part of life for them. It's normal to live in a household where people believe or don't believe different things.

If you're really against it, ask your DS not to join in, or speak to the school and say that he's currently an atheist, so you'd like him to sit out of the prayer. That's perfectly acceptable and really simple.

Good point actually, I don't know if it's being 'taught'.

But then if it's not, what's the point in praying?

But then if it's not, what's the point in praying?

It's a placebo.

A pp has said that worship needs to be a daily occurrence in all schools in the UK. This is not the case in Scotland.
They still have religious assemblies, but perhaps monthly (or less often) not daily.

what's the point in praying?

The requirement to have collective worship. Chances are, if they weren't going required to do so, they wouldn't do so.

I'm not actually going to get into a huge religious debate, but I did just want to reply to this;

Basically mentioning god, and thanking god in assemblies or at meal times is not acknowledging the true person/people who deserve the respect. Also looking to god to give you the strength to do something, rather than looking to yourself or your family/friends.

I just wanted to assure you I have never once ignored the person who's worked to provide anything for me. I have always thanked them. I have also thanked God for putting that person in my path. That's what my children do. The prayer they say before meals at school is based on thanking the people who do the work; thank you for all the brilliant people is the base of it. They also thank the dinner ladies because they're the people they see providing the food. It's not 'thank God so you don't have to bother thanking people'.

Equally I haven't, not since I was a child, prayed to God to just fix things for me. I sometimes pray for strength and guidance so that I can fix things for myself. It's like a clarifying moment - similar to what I've experienced during non-religious based meditation. I'm going to reflect now on the issue, quietly, and I'm going to look at the resources I have at my disposal to fix it. It's just that when I'm praying, I'm doing this as a conversation.

I'm really not saying that my way is the best way, and I'm sure as hell not saying it's the only way - it's simply the way it works for me. Other people do different things to get to the same results.

I just wanted to say it because I don't like the idea of people thinking that I'm rudely ignoring all the people who've worked to help me in favour of just thanking God. I don't do that.

Kirjava - were you home schooled / educated outside the UK?

If not then you too received similar Christian 'moments' on a daily basis at Primary and Junior school. Assemblies are where it was hidden in Secondary.

We are a Christian country by default - the Head of State is also Head of Church so all state schools are Christian - as others have said.

I am a bit bemused as this isn't a recent addition to schooling, it has always been there!

Iggi in my experience, most places don't do daily worship tbh. They might have a moral story, but not a religious story, at assembly. At secondary, DD has only ever heard religion mentioned three times a year- one at Christmas (when it's painfully religious), once at Easter (before breaking up, also painfully religious) and the third on Armistice (where there's a hymn, but the rest isn't religious).

Favourite quote on the subject (not sure who by):

"Religion is like a penis - it's ok to have one, it's ok to be proud of it, but it's not ok to wave it around in public and try to shove it down our children's throats."

OP the more people like you who question the daily prayers thing (adds up to hundreds of times a year!) the sooner we'll have secular schools. Then every parent can privately teach their children any religion or none.
The separation of religion and state is coming, but the more people who question the right of religions to press their odd ideas on schoolchildren, every school day, the quicker that will happen.
By all means, teach children about life spiritual choices including sects, religions and even secular fundamentalists but when the daily act of worship consists of a handful of children praying with a teacher who may not even be a christian, we'll probably see it end.

YABU

Clapping along to I Have Seen The Golden Sunshine in assembly was the highlight of the school day when I started school

If this is the biggest problem in your or your DS's life then lucky you!

I went to a faith school Nomama so was under the impression that non-faith schools were... Well, non-faith!

I went to a CofE primary and had atheist parents (I didn't know that at the time - they very much let me make up my own mind and answered any questions honestly but vaguely - "some people believe x, some people believe y). I remember forming my views and beliefs, and starting to doubt in the existence of a God from about the age of 10. I'm 30 now and absolutely define myself as atheist.

My DH is Irish. Was taught in Catholic schools by priests. His parents were Catholic. He is 32 and has only just begun to question his faith. The difference being that he has had the same 'brainwashing' (yes - sorry some up-post don't like it, but that is how I see it) from all significant people in his upbringing, he never thought to question it.

I would ideally love to see a complete separation of religion and education. I obviously don't disagree with religion being taught as a subject, I disagree with it being taught as a fact. How can a child see the difference when a teacher introduces a new topic and facts in science, to when they are teaching bible stories as fact? If parents' want a religious education, that can be achieved outside of school time.

However, it isn't something I would get too concerned about at a non-religious school. It can very much depend on the headteacher, their religion and how they conduct assemblies - some heads ignore the 'daily collective worship' law, other stick to it fully. I certainly wouldn't withdraw my child from it, I would have HATED this as a child.

These threads make me feel a little sad and I'm not even religious....

A bit of kum byah never did me any harm.

weeder - that's all nice and melodramatic but, the truth is, parents have always had the choice to withdraw their kids from any religious aspect of school - that and sex education. The right to refuse has always existed.

And why you assert that the separation of state and religion is imminent I have no idea. They have had a growing 'arm's length' relationship for decades, but disestablishment would mean an enormous upheaval in many areas of every day life. So it is unlikely to be done formally, as in Belgium or France (the problems it causes have been highlighted in France quite recently), it is more likely to fall quietly into disuse.

Unless people choose to start bellowing about how disgusting it is....

"We are a Christian country by default - the Head of State is also Head of Church so all state schools are Christian - as others have said."

The logical extension of that is that all hospitals, law courts, government buildings- all state funded institutions should be Christian too. Why aren't they?

So, kirjava, you didn't really notice or retain any of the religiousness of your schooling... chances are your DS won't either.

That was the point I was trying to make. You would have a had a similar set of experiences, kumbaya and all!

I also think it's interesting to think about views towards 'religions' like Scientology.

Most people's view is that it is an absolutely crazy concept - I know lots have comedian have jumped on it, all the 'levels' and the revelations about aliens, spirits, etc (keeping that very simple, I know there's a lot more to it) and how 'crazy' you have to be to believe in it.

But to me, there is no difference between someone who believes in the Scientology stories and someone who believes in Christian stories. To me they are equally as 'crazy'. It's just that most of us have grown up being told these Christian stories over and over again by people who are VERY influential in our lives: parents, teachers, members of the church.

The same two arguments always come up on these threads. They are so wide of the point that they make me

1. Worship is not religious education. RE is learning about what people believe, and worship is being told these things as fact. There is a very important difference between the two.

1. Withdrawing your child from compulsory worship is not the solution. School assembly is an important part of school life and no child should be excluded from all or any part of it.

It has no place in education. Even the Church of England's education spokesperson has called for an end to compulsory worship in state schools.

We dislike DS praying in assembly but have had to suck it up because we don't want to withdraw him. But we have told DS's teachers that we don't want him learning about Christianity as if it were fact, and they have assured us it will not happen.

I'm sceptical of that since the local vicar visited another class last Easter and told the children that if they ever have a problem they should tell Jesus. I don't want DS being told that kind of thing, or that God made the flowers and animals etc.

Anybody who feels so strongly that their children should be taught that kind of thing can send them to Sunday school.

Sorry for incipient hijack but, MrsWolowitz, you asked me if I wanted to keep the Easter story away from DD, or tell her a version without resurrection. If you are an atheist, the Easter story can't include resurrection - it's not possible and didn't happen. So the Easter story ends up as a bit of a horror show! It goes something like this:

"Once, a man told some important stories. The stories taught the people who heard them about love for others, living in peace, and sharing the good things we have. The government didn't like the stories - they were very powerful stories and changed the way people behaved. So they nailed that man to a cross, put a crown of thorns on this head, and left him there until he died."

It's not a story you'd choose to tell to little children unless you believe in the resurrection and the life everlasting - because that's where the torture in the story gives way to hope. I told DD that I am thankful that I live here and now, in a time when people can choose the stories they tell and the religion they will follow without fear of being killed.

I did tell her other Bible stories in a slightly straighter way - the Christmas story, the Good Samaritan... And as she gets older I will tell her others (and so will her school) but I won't leave her thinking that water can be turned to wine without some serious fruit/yeast/time intervention!

I hope my kids are exposed to lots of different religions and cultures etc. I think knowledge breeds tolerance and acceptance.

I am not so sure actually.

One would think this to be true, but looking deeper, many religions do not actually promote tolerance and acceptance, and also, if you are atheist it makes religions even more pointless and a waste of time, and the fact you need to go round tip toeing in case one offends over religion.

For some non believers its like looking a cult.

I believe it's coming Nomama - I didn't suggest imminent.
As for 'melodramatic' - in what way?

school I agree in that children are told very gory stories and no one questions them because its part of the fabric.

Myself and all my siblings went to a CofE school because it was the only one available to us at the time.

We said a prayer every morning and had hymn practice, we even had all our concerts at the local church. Our family is in no way religious. I am not religious now and neither are my siblings. We weren't traumatized or converted it was just one of those things we did at school. It's not a big deal!

HowDyaDo Mon 20-Oct-14 13:19:16

I agree