to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school?

[KirjavaTheCat]

DS is four and has just started reception. A couple of days ago, we were playing and he said something like "...and then we put our hands together without clapping like this, and shut our eyes and say, 'dear God' and then we say things"

I asked where he learned that and apparently they pray every morning. I find this odd because his class is made up of children from all different religious backgrounds, and it isn't a faith school. Why are they learning to worship?

We're not religious. I don't think I'm comfortable with him praying to 'God' every day. Should I say something? AIBU?

I really can't see what there is to be 'uncomfortable' about, unless the head in your school is excessively evangelical.

The broadly Christian values of kindness, tolerance, and thinking of others are jolly good values to instil in children. They are also shared by the other major faiths and, I'd like to think, by most atheists too. Appreciation for what we have (and too often take for granted) as well as awareness that other people may not have as much are also good things to cultivate.

Yes, you could think of it as a moment of quiet reflection in fact, that is how it is largely positioned in our primary (a Church school) but I don't see anything very wrong in dressing it up as a prayer. 'God' is such a big concept that even people who believe in him/her/it largely do not believe in the sort of god who sits on a cloud and listens to prayers. Prayer is more like an accessible introduction to deep thought.

And the 'god' prayed to is usually generic -- and it's the same god for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam anyway.

I am probably overreacting but I am horrified by this! Compulsory prayer...!?! I agree with some pps that it's almost brainwashing. My dc haven't started school yet but I will be removing them from this when they do.

Hands up everyone on this thread who went to an English school (don't know about other UK countries)! You had a daily prayer and religious assembly, certainly in primary school if not in secondary school. The fact that it seems such a surprise to you that it still goes on shows that it didn't have a disastrous or brainwashing effect on you.

Prayer is not compulsory becoming, did you not read the thread?

"The broadly Christian values of kindness, tolerance, and thinking of others are jolly good values to instil in children. They are also shared by the other major faiths and, I'd like to think, by most atheists too."

You'd like to think? Why on earth wouldn't they? People of faith don't have the monopoly on kindness and tolerance.

People of faith don't have the monopoly on kindness and tolerance.

I've heard people questioning "where will the get their moral guidance?" as though the only way people know right from wrong is through religion. I'd rather them know right from wrong for the sake of knowing and being a decent human being, rather than through fear of what might happen to them when they die.

That said, if people want to pray and believe, that is their own choice, but it should be precisely that - a choice. Not something that is compulsory (even with the ability to opt out).

Religion should be left to family, not schools.

Quenelle -- yes, but as atheism isn't an organised 'movement' (for want of a better word) it does not profess any shared values. Therefore I can't make any assumptions about the values held by individual atheists.

Not that all people of faith have been known to demonstrate the values promoted by their religions, of course.

Not that all people of faith have been known to demonstrate the values promoted by their religions, of course

id say the opposite actually.

I'd rather them know right from wrong for the sake of knowing and being a decent human being, rather than through fear of what might happen to them when they die.

Right from wrong does actually have to be taught to children. They have to learn to be kind, to share, to take turns and to not always put their own needs/wants first.

Schools do not tell children that anything bad will happen to them when they die.

I find the Christian attitude to prayer in school deeply baffling. It's surely incredibly intolerant to say "well, we want prayer in school, so if you don't, tough". And it's surely also pretty bizarre to be happy for people to just be paying lip service to something that is very important and sacred to you.

And I also find the double think difficult to understand "This is so important that we are prepared to dried roughshod over your wishes to impose it" but simultaneously "It doesn't have any effect on anyone, don't worry about it". Very, very odd.

But surely you do the same if you attend a friend or relative's wedding in a church Hakluyt, or would you not do that?

Nothing was mentioned on any of the paperwork for DD's school either. For many members of society church attendance and religious belief are so 'other' that it wouldn't occur to us that our children would be asked by their teachers to participate in worship. Why would we assume that, in 2014, when, in the nicest possible way it is not fact and the purpose of school is education?

It doesn't matter that most of us were made to pray in assembly etc, lots of things were different about schooling for previous generations, what matters is what is right, now.

The comparison with Scientology is indeed an interesting one, it's no less fanciful than Christianity to me and my family, yet we are expected to accept schools delivering a message with a Christian bias.

My DD cannot make the leap that thanking god for her snack is really thanking the nice person who bought the snack and put it in her lunch box. She is told to thank god, so she does.

"But surely you do the same if you attend a friend or relative's wedding in a church Hakluyt, or would you not do that?"

Of course I would.

But a school is not a church. And attendance at weddings is voluntary. And weddings are not state funded. Apart from that, the analogy is perfect!

It used to be the only thing that was required to be taught in schools was Christianity. However, it is your right to withdraw your child from this if you feel highly uncomfortable. What does your DC think? Some kids find comfort in this kind of structure and surely he should be allowed to make up his own mind about religion of all kinds?

Right from wrong does actually have to be taught to children. They have to learn to be kind, to share, to take turns and to not always put their own needs/wants first.

Of course those are only some peoples ideas of "right" ...

You don't have to worship any God to understand and apply the messages that Bible stories promote. I am atheist - I work in a very Catholic school and have, if I am honest, really, really enjoyed the opportunity for quite reflection that the religious-side of things brings to my day. Yes, it is, for the most part, scripture-based but the messages are only ever about living a good life, being grateful, not being greedy, being understanding, being tolerant, being kind etc. etc. and most teachers are able to take the message and put it into some kind of real-life perspective - youtube is our friend! Prior to working at the school, there was, if I am honest, little opportunity in my daily life for reflection or even the opportunity for a peaceful moment in an otherwise busy day. I have found it a positive thing for me personally but I don't do it in the name of God and never will. I see no reason for the withdrawl of any child from that opportunity, it is up to parents to put it in context and ultimately, although I hope my children will have a similar view of the world to myself, if they wanted to take part in organised religion, there is very little I could do about it. Their lives, their choices. 5 minutes here and there in school is unlikely to influence them one way or the other.

The principle is the same. Attendance at school is compulsory but praying is not. And as a guest at a wedding you would not have to pay to attend the church, so they are quite similar.

The point is, you don't believe but you observe a respectful silence during the prayer. It's not hard, we all need to learn how to do it because it is a major part of our culture. In fact, it's a major part of all cultures.

Sitting quietly in church does you no harm at all, it shows respect for the choices of other members of the community, of which you are also a member. Likewise, they will respect your views if you wish to marry in a non-religious service.

So you think it's perfectly acceptable for the default position in a school to be thanking God for their lunch, and for 5 year olds whose parents do not want them to pray to be removed from the class room or reminded not to or in some other way made "conspicuous"? That's what I mean about riding rough shod. "We want Christian worship in school- deal with it".

but you observe a respectful silence during the prayer.

You may observe a silence but whether or not its respectful, I am not sure.

As said before all religions are really cults.

Likewise, they will respect your views if you wish to marry in a non-religious service.
Not sure the respect does go two ways

And if it was five minutes of quiet reflection without mention of God, then every one could join in, of any faith and none, and it would be truly collective. Everyone wins, surely?

Many people say they don't want their child 'brainwashed'. But by not allowing them access to religion as well as your own atheism, you are brainwashing them into becoming atheists too.What ius wrong with giving them both sides and letting them come to their own decisions.

And if it was five minutes of quiet reflection without mention of God, then every one could join in, of any faith and none, and it would be truly collective. Everyone wins, surely?

Haklyut I agree feels strange.

I am all for thinking and mindfulness etc.

Because it should be parental choice, moaning. I will tell DD that some people believe in different things, and she is free to believe whatever she likes.

The school is portraying god as a real thing that exists. It's not on.

I too am finding this all new agreeing with Hakluyt malarkey a little unsettling.

This sums it up beautifully:
So you think it's perfectly acceptable for the default position in a school to be thanking God for their lunch, and for 5 year olds whose parents do not want them to pray to be removed from the class room or reminded not to or in some other way made "conspicuous"? That's what I mean about riding rough shod. "We want Christian worship in school- deal with it".