to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school?

[KirjavaTheCat]

DS is four and has just started reception. A couple of days ago, we were playing and he said something like "...and then we put our hands together without clapping like this, and shut our eyes and say, 'dear God' and then we say things"

I asked where he learned that and apparently they pray every morning. I find this odd because his class is made up of children from all different religious backgrounds, and it isn't a faith school. Why are they learning to worship?

We're not religious. I don't think I'm comfortable with him praying to 'God' every day. Should I say something? AIBU?

@Bookaboo

Hakluyt sorry I spelt your name wrong. You must have missed them because they are there.

AWomb I accept that you believe the majority would say 'no'. I think the majority would say 'yes'. Perhaps someone should start a campaign for a referendum to determine if church/state/education should be separated. Historically and politically it would be a massive shift in the UK so as such a referendum might seem appropriate and then we would know what the majority of people think rather than assuming they think the same as us.

The key point, for me, is that the interpretation by an individual head teacher is so variable. It might be vague words about being kind, or it might be the vicar once a week and being told Jesus died for our sins. No way to know - the schools don't make it clear on their websites or in their prospectuses.

Even worse, the new local free school is selling itself as 'inclusive' and 'welcoming applications from all communities' but is, when you dig into it, actually being set up by a group of evangelical Christian charities. This is (deliberately?) not obvious from the prospectus and website.

So parents are not ignorant of the law, they are victims of a lottery based on the unpublicised religious views of individual head teachers'. It would be a lot clearer if a CofE school meant lots of praying, and a non-denominational school meant no praying but a bit of moral guidance. And to do that, you would need to change the law to get rid if the 'worship of a broadly Christian nature' bit.

"Hakluyt sorry I spelt your name wrong. You must have missed them because they are there."

Don't worry. It's hard to spell.

Are there? There are a lot of atheists saying that they are happy with RE being taught in schools- I am one of them. But I don't think there were any saying that they wanted their children to worship a Christian god as part of their daily routine in a state funded non faith school.............

Please explain to me why, if the majority of parents are happy with collective worship (as evidenced by the majority of DCs participating in it) the current system should be changed?

The majority participate because they haven't opted out. Many of them haven't for the valid reasons already given, others because they are not bothered enough to do so but wouldn't choose it given the option. They didn't opt in. Which is sort of the whole point.

The other point being that Worship DOES NOT = Religious Education. Practising one religion does not teach a child about all faiths and the possibility of no faith. (Thought I'd have one last go...)

Hakluyt I'm unsure why you keep suggesting that posters are confusing collective worship with the teaching of RE. It's obvious in most (if not all) posts whether they are addressing learning about different religions or participating in acts of collective worship.

There are lots of posters saying they are athiests and they don't have a problem with their DCs saying prayers at school or taking part in collective worship. Some said they viewed it as a learning experience. Others felt it mirrored their own background so they didn't see it as a negative experience or one destined to make a child religious.

I guess I don't find that odd because my personal experience with family, friends and colleagues is that they all have their reasons for supporting the idea of collective worship whether they are RC; C of E; C of S; Jewish; Muslim; Buddhist; athiest. Possibly because our peer group is so varied, we're all confident our DCs know that people believe different things ie some believe there is no God; others believe in this type of God; some think this about God.

No way to know - the schools don't make it clear on their websites or in their prospectuses.

But they do. They have collective worship policies that they publish on their websites. I DEFY anyone to find one in a non-denominational school that declares an evangelical or non-inclusive mission.

And Hakluyt, I don't actually think anyone on this thread has said that they wanted their children to worship a Christian god as part of their daily routine etc. What many (most?) are saying is that, in their experience, the daily collective worship tends to be moral rather than overtly Christian in tone and that they do not feel that their children are in any immediate danger of being indoctrinated as a result.

That's certainly what I'm saying. I don't actively support it but know that it will continue until the law is changed. Meanwhile, as I have never yet come across any of these highly religious headteachers or teachers that everyone else is talking about, I am confident that my children's souls will remain as black or non-existent as ever.

Quenelle it's getting tired now that you keep implying there is any confusion about collective worship and religious education. The differences are obvious and recognised.

Also, you don't know that the majority would opt out of collective worship and no matter how often you type that assertion, it doesn't make it fact.

There was a limited survey conducted a number of years ago but there has not been any concentrated attempt to determine the wishes of the majority of parents on this issue. The limited survey that was conducted showed a difference in opinions depending on the age range of the parents. The study was so small and inconclusive that it wasn't clear whether parents views would change as they aged or if they would maintain their views as they aged. If you have more recent or conclusive research then please do link to it. Otherwise, it would be more accurate if your prefaced any 'majority' comments with the proviso that it is in your opinion.

What many (most?) are saying is that, in their experience, the daily collective worship tends to be moral rather than overtly Christian in tone and that they do not feel that their children are in any immediate danger of being indoctrinated as a result.

Not in our case. DD's teacher is most definitely leading prayer to a Christian god, and that is what I care about.

^^ Well in that case, withdraw your child. Simples.

aggggggggggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's always going to go round in this circle because there are two different issues.

MNer1: ^'I'm unhappy about my DC taking part in collective worship at school, what can I do?'
Responses: Your DC can opt out.
MNer1: But now I'm unhappy about other DCs taking part in collective worship at school.
Responses: Well that's a much bigger issue that involves other people, the history of the education system and the Church, etc, etc

And the 3rd position-"I don't see why you should have to be a nominal Christian to take a full part in the life of any state funded institution- why should the default position be Christianity and non Christians have to opt out?"

It's the "Don't like it? Opt out , then" attitude which puts Christians in such a bad light.

BookABooSue the two are being treated as the same by many posters. The general theme of many posts is 'How can your child make a choice if they're not given all the options, and not just your atheist viewpoint?'

I and many others have said this is not a valid argument for compulsory collective worship. Children can make choices by learning about all the different faiths, and the absence of a faith, in RE, not by practising one religion every day.

And there are the comments about how withdrawing your child from RE means they can't be in the nativity play etc...

I don't have any recent or conclusive research, and you say you don't either. The poster who said: 'Please explain to me why, if the majority of parents are happy with collective worship (as evidenced by the majority of DCs participating in it) the current system should be changed?' has assumed that children participate because their parents want them to, also without any evidence to back it up, as far as I am aware.

It's well known that opting out as an option is always going to be weaker, hence the discussions surrounding that policy for organ donation.

I'd be interested hear a justification for the inclusion of worship in the school day, aside from the benefits of a couple of moments of mindfulness.

Hakluyt there's the anti-Christian thing, right there. Why does the 'opt-out' option put Christians, specifically, in a bad light? The last person who mentioned it was me and I am not a Christian. When I think about such things (not very often) I incline towards atheism. So you're welcome to say it puts me in a bad light (though I don't see why) but I refuse to burden Christians with the consequences of my opinions.

AWombWithoutAFoof Tue 21-Oct-14 12:16:49
What many (most?) are saying is that, in their experience, the daily collective worship tends to be moral rather than overtly Christian in tone and that they do not feel that their children are in any immediate danger of being indoctrinated as a result.

Not in our case. DD's teacher is most definitely leading prayer to a Christian god, and that is what I care about.

You are mixing up worship and prayer.

They are two different things.

Collective worship might include a prayer but it is not actually a prayer.

That's why so many people have said they are happy for their child to attend collective worship and just not join in with the prayer.

Quenelle that poster was me! I mentioned that I was using current participation as evidence because there is no research. If you read my other posts you will also see I say it seems to be the case.

Hakluyt as the PP said, you are assuming religious affiliation automatically when you feel someone disagrees with your position. The third option that you mention in your post deals with a hypothetical situation of an education system that differs fundamentally from our's. It's a bit like that joke about 'can you tell me how to get to London? ' well, I wouldn't start from here'. There is only here to start from. The reasons why we have a relationship between Church, state and education are historic and political. The reasons for separating them have to be more nuanced and sophisticated than 'I want to choose what my DC does or doesn't do at school and I want to choose what everyone else's DC does too.

Can you expand on that Fairenuff? If praying to god and learning songs about how great he is isn't worshipping him, then what is it? Not being snarky, genuinely don't know.

How would you go about worshipping God without praying or referencing to him?

Ugh, referring to* him.

The reasons for separating them have to be more nuanced and sophisticated than 'I want to choose what my DC does or doesn't do at school and I want to choose what everyone else's DC does too

I cannot for the life of me imagine that anyone here - of any religious preference or none - wishes to enforce their own choices viz religion/faith on anyone else's children apart from the Christians

I am an atheist and a secularist who believes that secular education is right and appropriate for an inclusive, modern society. I believe that the State should not favour any religion. Therefore, I believe that State-funded schools should not operate within a particular religious ethos.

If you wish to send your child to a school that does, off you pop. You are free to choose whichever establishment you feel fits the ethos, religious or otherwise, that you'd like to instill in your children. I would ask the same, if it's all the same to you.

Why is it just schools? Why don't you have to opt out of the prayer before having your flu jab or filing your tax return?

MaidofStars I did choose. Myself and my staunch athiest DP chose a faith school for our DCs which they attend quite happily whilst knowing that their DDad doesn't believe in God, that their best friends are Muslim, their uncle Jewish, their aunt a Buddhist, etc. I'm unsure why you would assume you know anything about my choices from my posts. I'm mentioning them now because you incorrectly referenced them.

Also please do share how you identify the Christians or are you using the same barometer as Hakluyt that anyone who disagrees with you must not only be religious but a Christian?