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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school?

405 replies

KirjavaTheCat · 20/10/2014 11:53

DS is four and has just started reception. A couple of days ago, we were playing and he said something like "...and then we put our hands together without clapping like this, and shut our eyes and say, 'dear God' and then we say things"

I asked where he learned that and apparently they pray every morning. I find this odd because his class is made up of children from all different religious backgrounds, and it isn't a faith school. Why are they learning to worship?

We're not religious. I don't think I'm comfortable with him praying to 'God' every day. Should I say something? AIBU?

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 21/10/2014 08:52

I will never understand how people think that insisting on a ritual act of worship for children as young as four is offering free choice.

FriendlyLadybird · 21/10/2014 09:38

I'm quite sad about the amount of anti-Christian invective on this thread. People wouldn't talk like that about Jews or Muslims. Why is it OK to bash the Christians?

For what it's worth (and I will step away from the thread after this):

  • The daily act of collective worship is not a sinister Christiam plot. It is part of the law and has been since 1944. If you are surprised at this, you have not been paying attention.
  • If you wish to, you may remove your child from this aspect of school life. It's not a big deal.
  • But neither is it a big deal if you don't. The requirements of the 1998 Act allow for pretty broad interpretation, and I'm fairly sure that most HTs will keep the specific religious content to a minimum. In my DD's school, the 'prayer' is not addressed to 'Dear God' (and certainly not to 'Dear Christian God') but is a little meditation on things such as kindness and friendship -- values that everyone signs up to.
  • I very much doubt that teachers are going round presenting God as 'fact'. Most of them probably don't believe in him/her/it themselves.
  • Even when a local priest comes in, as does happen at my DD's school -- come on! This is the Church of England we're talking about! A more tolerant, questioning, self-doubting, wishy-washy institution is hard to find. They don't do hellfire, damnation, indoctrination, or literal interpretations of the Bible. I'm not entirely sure that they do God. They do women, though, so whoever was worrying about her daughter's self-esteem can cross that problem off her list. And incidentally, the head of education at the Church of England (the Bishop of Oxford) agrees that the daily act of collective worship should be scrapped and make way for 'spiritual reflection'.
  • There are already a number of petitions around, such as that from the Secular Society, calling for a change in the law. Anyone who feels strongly enough should sign up to those.
Hakluyt · 21/10/2014 09:41

"I'm quite sad about the amount of anti-Christian invective on this thread"

Please could you show me some?

People wouldn't talk like that about Jews or Muslims. Why is it OK to bash the Christians?"

i try not to "bash" anyone, but if we were talking about Judaism or Islam I would say the same or similar things

Hakluyt · 21/10/2014 09:44

"- I very much doubt that teachers are going round presenting God as 'fact'. Most of them probably don't believe in him/her/it themselves."

What about all the posters whose experience disagrees with you!

"And incidentally, the head of education at the Church of England (the Bishop of Oxford) agrees that the daily act of collective worship should be scrapped and make way for 'spiritual reflection'."

good. So why are so many posters so keen to cling on to it? While simultaneously saying how insignificant it is?

AWombWithoutAFoof · 21/10/2014 09:47

It is hardly a sermon or preaching either- even if the local vicar is in.

But why is the vicar there in the first place? If he/she was there one week and a firefighter the next and a zookeeper the next, in the context of 'people with interesting jobs', that's fine. But there is no place for worship in schools.

If it's genuinely true that no deity is every mentioned and that it's 2 minutes of mindfulness then a vicar doesn't need to be there anyway.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 09:48

The problem is that this sort of thread has been popping up with regularity since at least 2007. In that 7 yrs nothing has changed. Someone is bound to start one in December, if not before- it will still be going in 2021 and won't change unless people stand up,and do something. Is OP prepared to get active? While people just moan that they should do something it simply won't happen. It needs to be 'what can we do'- and joining the secular society would be the easiest starting point.

It isn't something that bothers me. Mine made up their own mind, as I knew they would. It seems a bit bizarre to me that my great grandparents became Methodists in about 1880 and so decided for me, my children and my unborn children!! We get the same free choice.

I still don't understand why it matters. My son is getting married with a civil ceremony- am I supposed to mind, or coerce him into a church? Seriously? Why would I expect him to think the same as me?

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 21/10/2014 09:50

I'm quite sad about the amount of anti-Christian invective on this thread. People wouldn't talk like that about Jews or Muslims. Why is it OK to bash the Christians?

My sentiments are across all cults not just Christianity.

marthabear · 21/10/2014 09:50

I'm quite angry about the brainwashing of religion at my DS's school too. It is a Cof E school, however all the schools around are also Cof E so there was really little choice.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 09:52

It does show why people should study history. Most posters have not a clue about any of the education acts. I would like to know where OP went to school- whether she managed her whole school career without a hymn and a prayer - and if she had assemblies why she assumed it had changed by the time her DS went to school without it even being a lesser news item!

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 09:54

History again marthabear. People have no idea why there are so many Cof E schools and get so caught up with the idea that you have to attend church etc they don't realise that many children have to go to a church school, they have no others in the area.

CarryOn90 · 21/10/2014 09:55

What Maid said

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 09:55

The thing that saddens me most is that people think so little of their children they think they can be brainwashed! I have far more faith in mine.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 09:57

You can't choose if you don't know the alternative to your parent's ways.

Only1scoop · 21/10/2014 09:59

How sad that parents feel their children are being 'brainwashed' ....I think perhaps that's not the case and dislike the way 'brainwashed' is used....

Hakluyt · 21/10/2014 10:00

"The thing that saddens me most is that people think so little of their children they think they can be brainwashed! I have far more faith in mine."

I don't think for a minute that my children will be brainwashed. And I don't think anyone else does outside the minds of collective worship supporters! If anything, it's Christians who don't trust their children to survive a 6 hour prayer vacuum ith their faith intact.

The point is that I do not want my children being told to pray to anyone or anything at school. Because that's not what school is for.

MaidOfStars · 21/10/2014 10:00

You can't choose if you don't know the alternative to your parent's ways

I think the fact that most children, should they choose that path, end up with the same religion as their parents and immediate society tells you all you need to know about how wide a range of alternatives are truly offered.

Only1scoop · 21/10/2014 10:02

Blimey ....some of these children would be terrified to join in a prayer by the sounds of it....I shouldn't worry.

Hakluyt · 21/10/2014 10:03

"You can't choose if you don't know the alternative to your parent's ways"

Yes. That is why I am a supporter of RE lessons. As, I think everyone on this thread is.

What about Christian children knowing the alternative to their parents's ways?

MaidOfStars · 21/10/2014 10:03

Also, to echo others, I have no problem with children knowing and learnign about alternatives. I have massive problems with children being forced to worship. I don't care how loosely it is executed on the ground. That it is a law in this country horrifies me (and yes, I am fully signed up to societies and campaigns to stop it).

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 10:08

Why on earth wouldn't children of Christians know the alternative? Mine have chosen the alternative. No one has yet told me why this matters!

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 10:09

How can you force anyone to worship? A sheer impossibility!

upduffedsecret · 21/10/2014 10:11

I have officially withdrawn my (reception-aged) child from worship in school. He may attend any part of the assembly which does not deal with religion, thus he may be present for announcements and prize-givings etc. He may NOT attend any presentation by outside religious groups (schools love these, it frees the teaching staff up to do something useful rather than running assemblies). He may (and should) be taught about ALL religions in a "some people believe" way, but never in a "this is true" way. He may not be taught to pray to any gods. He should never be asked to sing hymns or similar of any religion, unless it's a part of the class work and similar will be done for any religious festival covered by the curriculum.

I have a really good email I sent to do this, written by a teacher with referencesto the legal side. I found it hard to write one without sounding like a prat. If anyone wants a copy then just ask :)

I also had a chat with his teacher about what exactly I did and didn't want him to do... Explained that I encouraged learning about every religion, but that any religion being forced on a child by the legal situation is wrong, and that it was as wrong to me when I was a christian too. I didn't mind him learning about christmas, eid, hannukah, or any of the other festivals. If he wants to, he could be in the nativity play (though for the sake of it flowing I'd advise never give him a main part, he's not the type to enjoy it!) just as he could take part in the diwali dancing and the chinese new year dragon. I followed it up with email confirming the main points.

I think he's the only child in the whole primary school who's been withdrawn. If every parent who doesn't want their children being forced to worship (is that even technically possible?) in school withdrew them, maybe the law would change. But right now, any school (other than faith schools of other faiths) which DOESN'T is actually breaking the law.

Hakluyt · 21/10/2014 10:12

"Why on earth wouldn't children of Christians know the alternative? Mine have chosen the alternative. No one has yet told me why this matters!"

Well, it was you suggested that children couldn't choose if they didn't know the alternative to their parent's views, wasn't it? Forgive me if I have my posters muddled........

HappyAgainOneDay · 21/10/2014 10:17

I thought that Christians, Jews and Mohammedans had the same God at the top of their religious pyramid.

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