to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school?

[KirjavaTheCat]

DS is four and has just started reception. A couple of days ago, we were playing and he said something like "...and then we put our hands together without clapping like this, and shut our eyes and say, 'dear God' and then we say things"

I asked where he learned that and apparently they pray every morning. I find this odd because his class is made up of children from all different religious backgrounds, and it isn't a faith school. Why are they learning to worship?

We're not religious. I don't think I'm comfortable with him praying to 'God' every day. Should I say something? AIBU?

As I said upthread I attended a faith primary school as a child. It was extremely churchy. I had assumed, having no reason to research it all these years and what with DS being my first child, that non-faith schools were just that; without faith. Perhaps I'm naive. But clearly it's an assumption many parents make.

I am surprised to learn that it's enshrined in law that our children must participate in daily worship, in 2014. In an age of such cultural and religious diversity we're asking our children to pray to a Christian god as default. Very strange.

I haven't noticed anyone bashing Christians fwiw.

You can't choose if you don't know the choices and take just what your parents care to tell you.

I think that far more children of Christians become atheists than the other way around. The sky doesn't fall in if you decided differently to your parents!

I think everyone should follow this advice:

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You get them for a very short time-you do not give birth and think you can give them your thoughts.

I wouldn't want the censorship that upduffedsecret imposes. Has she asked him-given him the choice-discussed it with him?

Blimey this thread really is going round and round in circles. Does anyone actually RTFT? Or is it as Hakluyt and BackOnlyBriefly say, and posters are being deliberately obtuse?

I posted at the beginning of the thread that Worship does not = Religious Education. It is practising one religion. And yet the thread has continued with this 'but how will your children learn about religion/make their own choices?' argument.

I and others have explained why withdrawing children is not the obvious or appropriate solution.

This need to frame personal reflection around faith is a non-argument too. My son's school follows the Values Education programme. In describing Values Education it says on the school website: "We hope to inspire the children to choose their own personal, social, moral and spiritual values and to be aware of ways to deepen and develop them as world citizens." And a load of other stuff about celebration assemblies etc. Nowhere does it mention Christianity . There is an existing framework to base personal reflection on, and yet the HT still has praying to God at every assembly. It isn't necessary, and in the majority of peoples' lives it isn't relevant.

I also said that the CofE education spokesman believes it is now irrelevant in state schools and should be abolished.

And to the poster who said it's 'only 57 seconds a day', what you describe is praying taking place three times a day, every school day. That's actually a lot of reinforcing of an idea.

And Delphiniumsblue so what if this issue comes up regularly on MN? It shows that plenty of people do have an opinion on it. And how do you know none of us is campaigning against it? I'm baffled too because you said yourself that you believe it has no place in schools but have kept up a pretty staunch defence of it since saying that .

that non-faith schools were just that; without faith. Perhaps I'm naive. But clearly it's an assumption many parents make

That is the problem. No one appears to be told and they are clueless about the 1998 Education Act (or others) It merely means not a particular Christian faith-as people find out.

"
I wouldn't want the censorship that upduffedsecret imposes. Has she asked him-given him the choice-discussed it with him?"

what censorship?

my child is not being taught any religion over any other... no-one is allowed to tell him any is true. he can learn about them all and decide later when he's old enough. When he asks me, I explain what I know about it (age-appropriate, of course, I doubt if anyone would want me to go into exact details of how crucifiction felt etc and why it's still considered the most cruel way to execute)

I want him to learn about them, it's the only way he'll gain cultural understanding of others.

not sure what censorship you think I'm imposing by not letting anyone make my child pray to a god ?

I'm baffled too because you said yourself that you believe it has no place in schools but have kept up a pretty staunch defence of it since saying that

I don't think it has a place. I don't feel strongly enough about it to do anything.

And how do you know none of us is campaigning against it?

At least 7 years of threads-if people are campaigning they are not making a good job of it. They are not even making people aware there are no secular schools in England.

yet the HT still has praying to God at every assembly

He is following the law.

"You can't choose if you don't know the choices and take just what your parents care to tell you."

So why are you assuming that Christians tell their children about atheism and not the other way round?

not letting anyone make my child pray to a god ?

I really wish someone could explain how you make someone pray. A sheer impossibility. What will you do if next year he asks to stay in assembly?

I know lots of people who are atheists, brought up Christians-I know fewer the other way around.

oh, and by the way "she" is here.. how about asking me rather than deciding I'm only to be spoken about in the third person... that's rather rude.

He's 4. Since he's being raised not to believe in any religion until he's old enough to decide for himself, I don't think he'd have an opinion on it. it's my job to decide what is right for my children. Or would you be perfectly happy for my pagan friends to come in and lead your children in a daily sacrifice to Zeus or Cernunos, the Dagda, or any of the hundreds of other gods and goddesses available to chose from? To me, there is no difference.

In answer to Hakluyt.

Personally I don't know any who were brought up Catholics and are practicing.

"I know lots of people who are atheists, brought up Christians-I know fewer the other way around."

And that's because Christian parents carefully explain the possibility of atheism to their children from toddlerdom onwards and give them the choice before Church on Sundays, is it?

Oh, purhleese!

Since he's being raised not to believe in any religion until he's old enough to decide for himself, I don't think he'd have an opinion on it. it's my job to decide what is right for my children

Mine certainly had opinions when very young. It made for interesting discussions.

if he asks to stay in assembly we'll talk about why I withdrew him and I will tell him that if he still wants to when he's a bit older I'll let him, but I don't feel 5 is old enough for that kind of decision either.

I encouraged opinions.

5 isn't-but 8yrs certainly is.

that's twice his current age, thus not really relevent to us yet. I actively WANT him to be able to choose for himself, which is why I don't want "vaguely christian" to be his default option. I still don't see where the censorship you refered to occurs. I am honest with him that I used to believe it and don't any more and why (age-appropriate, again)

Right, for everyone saying, "What's the harm?" etc.

Why should the default position regarding this be that our 4 year olds are being proselytised to? Religion is made up, worship has no place within education. It's madness. Why are we forced to accept this, unless we make exceptions of our children?

The default position should be that if a family wants to believe whatever it is, that is for their family life.

Your children are not your children. right.. but they do belong to your priests?

I'm quite sad about the amount of anti-Christian invective on this thread. People wouldn't talk like that about Jews or Muslims. Why is it OK to bash the Christians?

That's nonsense because:
a) We're against all religious indoctrination. You may want to read some of the other threads where people say to me "you say that about Muslims, but you wouldn't say it about Christians".
b) at this stage it's the Christian church that has the power to use state schools to indoctrinate children, not Mormons, or Quakers

The daily act of collective worship is not a sinister Christiam plot. It is part of the law and has been since 1944. If you are surprised at this, you have not been paying attention.

If you had been paying attention you wouldn't be muddled about the subject, but it is both an agenda and a law. If you are arguing anything legal is automatically moral then you might look into slavery to begin with and equal rights for woman and black people.

you may remove your child from this aspect of school life. It's not a big deal.
The child loses out on the other aspects of assembly AND is marked out as different which encourages bullying. Why should they pay any price for not joining your religion?

I'm fairly sure that most HTs will keep the specific religious content to a minimum many do, but there are plenty that use the law to conduct their own evangelist campaign. They are the people you are supporting with your arguments. Did you really want to?

I very much doubt that teachers are going round presenting God as 'fact'.

Have you been away for a while?

"come on! This is the Church of England we're talking about! A more tolerant, questioning, self-doubting, wishy-washy institution is hard to find.*

While it's true they have abandoned most of Christianity many still embrace the idea that gays and women are inferior species. In any case you may have missed the point that a HT can teach HIS brand of Christianity. He can have a priest tell the kids they willl burn in hell if he wants and get away with it because people support his right without understanding it.
Anyone complains they will get "oh but it's good for them to learn about god".

There are already a number of petitions around, such as that from the Secular Society, calling for a change in the law. Anyone who feels strongly enough should sign up to those.

I have and have spoken on this subject in other places.

Christians always come out of these collective worship threads sooooo badly. I am amazed at the lack of self awareness.

But Hayluyt how do you know who is Christian? Or are you just assuming the posters who don't agree with you are Christian? (despite the fact that many have self-identified as athiests).

Please explain to me why, if the majority of parents are happy with collective worship (as evidenced by the majority of DCs participating in it) the current system should be changed?

Why should the minority be able to demand that something supported by the majority be removed from schools? Once you can answer that question within a legal and logical framework, you may be closer to achieving change.

"But Hayluyt how do you know who is Christian? Or are you just assuming the posters who don't agree with you are Christian? (despite the fact that many have self-identified as athiests)."

I must have missed the many atheists who think that their children should be expected to pray to a Christian God in the course of a normal day at a state funded, non Church school......

*Please explain to me why, if the majority of parents are happy with collective worship (as evidenced by the majority of DCs participating in it) the current system should be changed?

Why should the minority be able to demand that something supported by the majority be removed from schools? Once you can answer that question within a legal and logical framework, you may be closer to achieving change.*

I believe that if parents were asked "do you want your child to take part in regious worship every day?" the majority would say no. The idea that the UK is a Christian country is, I believe, an outmoded one, because the questions related to religion on the census are more skewed towards what people culturally identify with as opposed to whether they actually believe (ie 'I went to Sunday school as a child and am not Muslim therefore I must be a Christian', and opposed to 'I don't believe in god therefore I'm not a Christian'.)

The fact that people by and large do not remove their kids from worship does not mean that they want them to be there. It takes a lot to actually withdraw your child, you are drawing attention to them and making them 'outside the norm'.

Oops, asterisk fail there.

And a majority of men were happy with women not having the vote. What is your point?