To want to understand WHY some people are so toxic?

[queensansastark]

I mean know there are toxic people, MIL is one, and loads if threads here indicate that. But WHY? I find myself round and round in circles thinking BUT WHY are they like that? Do they realise that they are poisonous with their attitudes, words and deeds? And if you were one such, or other people think so, would you have the self awareness to recognise that you are toxic?

Or is toxic always other people?

I'm not sure which us worse tbh, not realise that you are doing it or know that you are doing it and therefore know that it is wrong but still carry on. I'd say the latter.

For the latter, is it just part of human nature? Does it stem from insecurity mostly?!

I think my ex mil and my ex have mental health issues. They are oblivious though and everyone else is the problem. I'm not allowed to criticise them or stick up for myself in any way or I'm stonewalled. Ex mil hasn't been in touch for almost 2 years, ds's father for just over a year. It's my 'punishment' (more like a gift TBH). Some people can't see the effect that their behaviour has upon others.

Yanbu

It fascinates me how some peoples minds work

I have asked that question so many times so many times about my parents OP. I've come up with lots of possible reasons but never had an 'aha! That's it' moment. I think I've accepted that I may never find a clear answer and it doesn't matter hugely - the important thing is how their behaviour affects me and how I manage that.

Often I think it's an inherited way of behaving, buttressed by a determination not to look at situations from anyone else's point of view, and a terror of admitting fault in themselves.

Spot on Irene.

My MIL is one of the most toxic people I know. Her own mother was equally toxic by all accounts. So it could be learned behaviour. But that still leaves the questions of how, why, where did this behaviour originate?

My MIL claims not to realise or intend her toxic behaviour. But I think she is perfectly well aware of what she is saying but plays the innocent card when called up on it.

It took DH years to open his eyes and ears to her but thankfully now he is well aware of her toxic ways.

I think as a species humans are generally nice to each other.

People who aren't tend to have some issues. It's often inferiority complexes and massive insecurities.

My EXH for example was massively insecure about his intelligence or lack of. He thought everyone was cleverer than him they were. So in any argument he would call me stupid, belittle my achievements and my intelligencebecause it was far greater than his
He would always try and get one over on me, and make me out to be stupid or incompetent. His favourite was to make jokes at my expense arsehole

Someone I know says she hates all kids and is quite unpleasant if people mention them. She can't have them and it's her way of making herself feel better about it

Whereas in my mother's case I think she is actually just thick. (Scarily she was a primary school teacher for many years).

Nature Vs Nurture, isn't it? Some people are brought up to ignore the needs of others, I suppose if you were the child expected to care for younger siblings you'd be trained to put others first but if you were the child everyone cared for and did little for others it would be different. The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath as well - one has no idea they behave in a certain way, the other knows but they don't care.

A percentage of the population seem to gain joy at making other people feel like rubbish. I have come to realise it doesn't matter what i do to try and combat this, they will continue to be wa***!

Your ex sounds like a bully, purple

I think my ex isn't use to people standing up to him and not giving him what he wants. If you don't behave in a certain way (agreeable and don't answer back) then he either stonewalls you, or yells in your face until you give in and behave in the desired way. He didn't contact to ds for 6 months until ds apologised for correcting his grammar in an email because ds had upset him Ds was 11, he was 42. This isn't normal adult behaviour.

Oh yes there is no point trying to call these people on their behaviour. MIL always either plays the unintentional or victim card. Have given up on trying to make her realise how unacceptable her behaviour is. Just avoid her as much as possible now and have a bitch about her with DH after a visit to release the inevitable stress she causes.

Try reading "Confessions of a Sociopath" by M E Thomas, written by a "high functioning, non criminal sociopath" it is both fascinating and chilling. I bought it to help me better understand a couple of narcissists that I am unable to go NC with. Although they are not the same thing sociopaths are very narcissistic and to my knowledge there isn't anything similar to this book about NPD.
What I find fascinating is the ability to manipulate and play games with others without any conscience or empathy - having been on the receiving end I know how brutal it can be!
Scarily it is estimated that 1in 25 people is a Sociopath desperately trying to fit in. They don't have the same emotional pointers as us and are largely demonised for their condition. I feel very sorry for them, which ironically is an emotional reaction that they can only ever pretend to have!

I remember seeing my ex mil smack her grand daughter across the legs for dragging her brolly across the floor several years ago. I mentioned that I didn't want ds to be smacked and she said she'd never hit any of her grandchildren. She looked so convincing, if I hadn't have seen her myself I wouldn't have been able to tell. I did and still feel crap though as ds had said a few times previously that she'd hit him and she'd laughed it off or said she'd just brushed into him I wouldn't allow him to see her unsupervised after this and contact reduced more and more. He hasn't seen her for almost 2 years. She sent him a birthday card which was all about her and how much she missed spending time with him. She knows where we are and has family who live 10 minutes away

My thoughts after dealing of years battling with a toxic family member:

What makes someone toxic?

• An abusive childhood in which their own self, personality, security was squashed and never allowed to develop properly

• Unhealthy coping mechanisms for the above (over-achievement, the need to put others down to feel OK, massive dependency and the search for the 'perfect' saviour) covering the internal fear that they are just as crap and worthless as their parent said they were

-Lack of a stable sense of self meaning that when any of the above is cut off (someone they're dependent on shows independent behaviour or is less than perfect, someone is more successful than them) they react with rage and destruction

-An underlying knowledge that the above is not OK feeds their insecurity and leads to MORE of the coping mechanism and MORE of the rage and destruction, because facing their own fear and emptiness is unbearable, so everyone else has to be the problem.

It terrifies me that it's possible to be like that and not realise. I spent a long time worrying I might end up like my toxic family member, but I've done a fair bit of therapy and I hope it's broken the chain. Plus the damage to me was, I think (despite the fact that it was awful) not quite as bad as what happened to them.

I also think that if you have good, solid, healthy relationships in your life then you're unlikely to be toxic. My toxic relative has no old friends, two broken marriages, a trail of jobs left in a fury and a crap relationship with both her children. There's a sign right there.

That's classic gaslighting lady (love the NN).

I'm sorry she hit your DS.

You wouldn't believe real gaslighting til you've seen it. I've had someone deny something they've just said to me. It's like they have a selective memory wipe function.

Has anyone else experienced toxic people in the workplace?

I have come across two such people in my career and they made so many people around them miserable. Nothing was ever done to correct or address their behaviour and they just went on to another workplace and carried on behaving in the same way. One was male, one female. The male was a real bully but would never say anything to your face. He was in a senior position and would use divide and conquer techniques by bitching about people who weren't there. The female was a bully but a cowardly one. If you stood up to her she would crumble but would then go away and plot her revenge! Sometimes she would try to hurt people through their career years later. I was warned about her but didn't believe it until i saw her in action. At the beginning of knowing her I actually felt sorry for her, she lived on her own, never had a lasting relationship, into her late thirties and used to cry about it in the office. It wasn't until later I understood why!

Both were very toxic and caused A LOT of problems. I still don't really understand it, the closest I think I've got is that they were both very insecure and unhappy people in their own ways and power gave them a chance to make them feel good about themselves. Very sad really.

I'm not sure about the connection between toxicity and mental health issues. I'm sure that there are people who have mental health problems and that these at least contribute to being toxic, but I find it a bit uncomfortable to attribute mental health as a general cause. Even if someone does have a problem, it doesn't automatically mean that they are toxic, and using mental health as a reason for being a shitty person has become almost a convenient, catch all "excuse".

Thank you, Adam, I didn't know but something wasn't right (and thank you ). I've often thought of starting a thread about them to ask if anyone knew what their issue was but I try not to give them headspace now. I don't need them around, I just feel sorry for ds that half of his family is toxic. I'm doing my best to support him and make sure that he doesn't end up the same.

Adam my brother is exactly the same a total wanker we both had the same shitty childhood but I'm the total opposite I'm too bloody nice. Me, my mum and grandma are the same and my brother, and grandad are the same. Think it's how your brought up some times