To want to understand WHY some people are so toxic?

[queensansastark]

I mean know there are toxic people, MIL is one, and loads if threads here indicate that. But WHY? I find myself round and round in circles thinking BUT WHY are they like that? Do they realise that they are poisonous with their attitudes, words and deeds? And if you were one such, or other people think so, would you have the self awareness to recognise that you are toxic?

Do you think birth position is also a factor? First children are often independent and caring of younger siblings, so are they more likely to have less toxic behaviour then last children? Ds's father is a last child and he's a 45 year old teenager. He goes out drinking a lot and becomes verbally abusive. He can't see anyone else but himself and the needs of ds don't get a look in. Whenever I speak to him, it's 'me, me, me'. His mother lies and makes excuses for him and his sister believes all of the shit he tells her.

Not sure about birth position - my toxic MIL is the oldest child.

Ah throws theory out of the window

I remember my mother telling me about her mother. She actually told my mum that she would have aborted her if she had been given the chance and my mum used to tell me that she'd beat her sister My mum has self confidence issues (no surprise) and suffers from depression, and there's times when she can be quite nasty. I can see how certain behaviours can be passed on - if you think that's normal... (not saying my mum told me I should have been aborted or she beat us).

Not sure about birth position tbh.

My grandmother was the eldest of 2 (adored her but there was no question that she really was toxic).

My aunt (currently NC) is extremely toxic. She is the youngest of 2 and I don't care if I never see her again tbh.

Aunt's husband (who I think is highly toxic as well as being her enabler) is the eldest of 9. He and my aunt are forever falling out with his blood family (he was married previously, widowed, and his late wife's family are all favoured. They wouldn't dare treat them in the way they treat the rest of us )

My grandmother and mother both have masses of those traits described and I am massively aware I struggle to think of others.

I'm pregnant with my first child and it worries me daily I'll be like them

I think you break the cycle, Blue

I can't do anything about the ex's side so we keep away. I refuse to expose ds to this and he's old enough to see that their behaviour is wrong.

'there are often differences in the way girls and boys in the same family are brought up'

Yes a million times to this. Parents often kid themselves that they treat their children all the same but it very rarely happens in my experience. My brother was the golden child and my parents are still making excuses for him at the age of 30.

And also a huge yes to the poster who talked about a toxic family member falling over themselves to help other people, then bitching them out behind their backs. My parents are never happier than when they are tearing someone to shreds behind their back. Its a tendency I have myself (because of the model I had from them) and I really have to work to keep it in check.

jeee, I think you may be in the toxic camp.

"it isn't that black and white at all and I think that it sits better under the Personality Disorder umbrella than the Mental Health one"

asteria

a personality disorder IS a mental health issue

it IS a diagnosis and personality disorders ARE as real as any other mental health issue

you don't have 2 separate umbrellas, one covering mental health issues and the other covering personality disorders. It is one umbrella called mental health issues, and personality disorders fall under that umbrella

I'm not sure about the connection between toxicity and mental health issues. I'm sure that there are people who have mental health problems and that these at least contribute to being toxic, but I find it a bit uncomfortable to attribute mental health as a general cause. Even if someone does have a problem, it doesn't automatically mean that they are toxic, and using mental health as a reason for being a shitty person has become almost a convenient, catch all "excuse"

narcissistic personality disorder is a genuine mental health diagnosis.

maybe there are people with this diagnosis who are lovely people, and not toxic in the slightest. My guess is though that most of them are very difficult people for those around them, and most are quite to very toxic.

that is not me "excusing" them, not at all, just saying that the word narcissism is often used innacurately and with abandon, but in the case of someone truly suffering from NPD, their mental health diagnosis explains why they act the way they do. Doesn't excuse it, just explains it.

there are very strong links, well documented and well researched, between NPD and toxic behaviour

I don't think so, Tuesday .... but I would say that, wouldn't I.

I just think that 'toxic' is banded about freely on MN - and I've never met anyone I would remotely classify as toxic in real life. I don't like everyone I've every met - but that doesn't make them toxic. And when someone doesn't like me, that doesn't make me toxic either.

Ah, another one to add to the 'things you only hear about on mumsnet' thread.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone describe someone they don't like as 'toxic' but on here it seems to be the word du jour (especially for MILs!)

I've never met anyone I would remotely classify as toxic in real life

Well, yes. If you're not recognising any of this, then probably not. Which is a good thing. However, your luck in not encountering toxic people does not extrapolate to mean that there are very few toxic people out there.

I've met lots of people I didn't like. The number of toxic people I've met I can count on the fingers of one hand. The difference is quite apparent.

My grandmother was toxic to her family - outside the family she acted like the most generous bountiful person on Earth - don't think that a person can't have two sides to them.

So yes, the woman who goes to church every week and gives away food and household items to those in need and accepts all the admiration for her generosity can still beat her children and lock them in cellars.
In fact they are the worst kind because they pretend to be nice so that of course, if the victims ever spoke up no-one would believe the victim. To this day there are people who won't hear a word against my grandmother - but the family knows different.

i agree (in part) with freckle and jeee. The words toxic and narc are massively overused on MN. However it doesn't alter the fact that a fair old percentage of the general population are indeed diagnosed narcissists, that's without stating the onbious fact that many also go undiagnosed. MN does though give the impression that it is far bigger a problem than it actually is, as in here you get called toxic or a narc for farting on a train or smoking within a half mile of a hospital entrance or using a mother & child parking bay when your child is 8.

onbious ???

should read

obvious

jeee in that case you have been supremely lucky in life, or you do not have the awareness, knowledge or insight to recognise toxic behaviour.

I've not researched links between npd and toxicity, Sleepy, but I do wonder how many people are toxic as opposed to npd/toxic - I don't know if I'm explaining myself particularly well though!

I just have concerns that there might be people who look at a toxic person and try to excuse it by saying "oh well, they're mentally unwell, they can't help it"; as you say, using the term "Npd" inaccurately and with abandon. (I say this as someone with chronic depression who is tentatively nc with a toxic relative and puts up with toxic ils).

But then as a pp said, even if there is a reason behind someone being toxic, it doesn't lessen the impact of their actions.

Jeee you are lucky. There are people in rl that I don't particularly like/get on with but they are very obviously not toxic. Sadly there are some people I know who are

Think NPD and toxic CAN be overused terms, but otoh it wasn't until I started reading about them on mn that I discovered that there was actually a name for all the nasty, manipulative behaviour I encountered.

It has certainly been an eye opening journey.....

I find it slightly amusing that saying that I've never met a toxic person in real life can be used to insult me.

Look, I'm damn' sure there are toxic people out there. But I think they're rare. I'm in my forties and I've probably come across the amount of people one would expect an average 40something to have met. But I have simply never met someone who I could honestly describe as toxic - even when I'd like to be able to as it would give me carte blanche to dislike them.

I don't know if I'm lucky, and of course it's perfectly possible that I do go round with my eyes shut.

My father was Mummy's special soldier and could never anything wrong and given that his mother ran around after him and ignored her own husband in his favour, he expects everyone else to do the same.

I don't see him much.

Sorry Jeee I didn't mean to cause offence - I just wish that I didn't have toxic people in my life/notice them/allow them any headspace etc

foxache, believe me when i say i would be the last person ever to even try to lessen the impact or make excuses about people with NPD and the effect they have on those around them. I will never do that.

the only point i was making is: we can't act like proper diagnosed narcissism (and being toxic is just one of the symptoms of NPD) is not a mental health issue. It is, it's an official diagnosis and it affects many people. And like any other mental health issue, there are many who go undiagnosed too.

If someone's narcissistic mother get's an official diagnosis tomorrow, that doesn't make her toxic behaviour over the last 40 yrs any less real or any less painful for those around her. It just means it's official now and with a bit of luck that mother can now try and get help and treatment. Bear in mind all personality disorders are more or less set and in place by the beginning of adult life, they are not something that just appears when one is 35 or 52, although they may only be diagnosed then.

That doesn't change the fact that I do think the words narcissistic and toxic are overused in here and often inaccurately used too.

The way narc and toxic are used in here is like me saying I am suffering from depression when really I am just having a bit of a downer this week. There is a massive difference between real depression and feeling down, in the same way there is a massive difference between someone who is occasionally toxic and occasionally narcissistic and someone who is a true toxic narcissist. We are all occasionally narcissistic. When it is a pervasive and maladaptive way of life, then it becomes a diagnosable mental health disorder.