To want to understand WHY some people are so toxic?

[queensansastark]

I mean know there are toxic people, MIL is one, and loads if threads here indicate that. But WHY? I find myself round and round in circles thinking BUT WHY are they like that? Do they realise that they are poisonous with their attitudes, words and deeds? And if you were one such, or other people think so, would you have the self awareness to recognise that you are toxic?

All the toxic people I have known (in own family and through work) were neglected or abused as children, and from a very early age, so Adam's post makes sense to me. Inside a toxic adult is a very angry child. This child has had to learn how to manipulate the world around them to get their needs met. They also seem stuck in a very egocentric mode (self centred) which suggests they were not able to properly develop emotionally or mentally.

Real toxic people are quite scary as well as deeply deeply sad. My MIL is not happy, she is angry and bitter and odd

To you and the people around them... but how do they see themselves? That was what I meant about being toxic and not knowing it.

Without adequate awareness of self, those that appear "toxic" may go through their lives not knowing why no one likes them.

They do not roll out of bed in the morning and say "I shall be foul and unlikeable today, as it pleases me".

Take my word for it.

Even if you are very self aware you can still be toxic. In fact, I believe that often a hyper awareness of self is sometimes the cause of such toxicity.

Self loathing can cause toxic behaviour.

Even with awareness, the power to change can be sadly elusive and possibly leads to embittered toxicity.

I also find it interesting that the victims of a toxic person's beahviour will often seek to understand and make sense of this person by evidencing just how disliked they are when discussing or thinking about that person.

'oh sarah is so horrible to everyone and she has absolutely no friends - everyone detests her - why doesn't she see this??!!'

Erm, she probably does and so deepens her need to behave in the ways she does. These are her protection and her armour. The deflection of her own self hatred.

Caterpillarmum - yes one of my 3 bosses is exactly like your female boss. The fallout at work has been massive, her team are all job hunting, I am probably reaching my limit. I do feel sorry for her, she blunders on leaving a trail of devastation in her wake, then looks worried as she realises just how far its gone/how people are reacting , by which time its too late for the gushing she then employs to try and solve it. We all know the gushing will last a day if that then its back to her usual MO.

Apparently me telling her I have done stuff is 'having attitude". Erm, your usual MO is to pester me every 10mins til your stuff is done. So when I reply to the pesterpower that yes its done, that's 'attitude'? I informed her boss re this and his face was a picture. I also documented the hourly moving the goalposts, abuse of company expense system, publicly humiliating her team for imagined errors etc etc etc.. she needs help.

what I don't get is how these toxic people have friends and family who still spend time on them?

I didn't mean that anything that the friends and family do is wrong but how do they get such a hold on people around them and why - do they get something out of it - I just can never get my head around it!

Do you ever wonder if it's you that's the problem? (This is a general question! Not at the op or anyone else)

DH and I both have what we would call toxic members of the family.

His mum has only recently started speaking to us after 3 years. She took offence over something...genuinely a small thing...and completely withdrew from us (no contact at all).

My family is worse. Talking to my mum is like walking a tightrope. You never know if she's going to take huge offence over something and go ballistic. My older dsis is a controlling dictator, could cause a fight in a convent and my mum panders to her like she's a delicate child (she's 26!).

I had had enough of my sisters shit and stopped speaking to her for 3 months last year. I was the WORST BITCH EVER for this according to my mum. So my mum stopped speaking to me. She then threw at me in an argument 'Well MIL wants nothing to do with you...nor do I at the moment. Your sister doesn't either after the way you've treated her...clearly you're the problem here'.

It really upset me and I seriously considered for a while if it was actually me. My dh and best friend who knew the full stories assured me it wasn't, and I came to the same conclusion.

Then I started thinking again (probably too much)...unreasonable people NEVER think they're being unreasonable.

So even if I WAS being unreasonable, I wouldn't know it, would I? So maybe it is me, but i'm so unreasonable, I'll never be aware that it's me. Get what I mean?

[Head explodes]

ALL the time mascara mascara!

Totally mascara...that's why it goes round and round in your head, and for your own sanity you have to come to a conclusion and draw a line under it.

Maddening - often family put up with it because its normal to want nurture as a child - and then a relationship as you grow older with a family member. Because you want that you will put up with it and hope to get the love and nurture you are seeking.

The toxic person will often exploit that because they a) they can b) being toxic is their learnt MO anyway they don't know a different one and c) what they get out of it can vary I would think: control, power, boosting their low self esteem, getting their own way 24/7 ??

Yes, Mascara. I went through a long period of time worrying that I was the problem. It was only through counselling that I understood that it really wasn't me, and that the reason I have zero friends and family, bar my DDs, my XH, and my XPILs, is because that's how I cope.

I was/am the scapegoat in my family, my sister the golden child, and having read the link on narcissistic mothers bit further back, to reconfirm what my therapist said, my mother is definitely one. A childhood like that colours not only how you feel about yourself, but also how you feel towards others - in my case a huge, huge problem with trust, combined with an insane need to please people; that made me very vulnerable to other abusive people, which has ultimately lead to pretty much total isolation.

But that complete lack of friends and family did cause me to spend a lot of time worrying that it was me who was the toxic one. I now understand that it's because I'm too scared to let anyone become even remotely close to me. My life suits me though, I'm self sufficient, I love my tiny, tiny broken little family of my DDs and I (and the XPILs and XH on the periphery, they're not allowed too close), and it really doesn't bother me that the only people I talk to are either on here, on Facebook, or when I have to go to the vets/drs/that sort of thing. I have met someone, he's fantastic, but deep down I know it won't go any further because I'd have to take a risk.

My mum is toxic. Quite possibly narc. She has zero self-awareness. Zero. Everyone else is always the problem.
I used to be somewhat toxic (unsurprisingly given said upbringing) but am working on it.

Also OP, I relate to your question! I don't get it.

The link pp posted on narcissistic mothers is exactly what mine does in fact so many things I hadn't even thought much of are clicking, as well as the stuff I have! (e.g. she once told me Dsis and b-I-l had IGNORED HER ON MOTHERS' DAY when they and she lived abroad...yeah, that wasn't the case...equally, she bad-mouths me to sisters when I am out of favour. Classic narc mother).
Her own parents were very abusive. I think there is a lot in that - it is learned behaviour.

And the present giving! OMG on my last birthday she guilt-tripped me on how she couldn't really afford the money she gave me! (And she ALWAYS gives everyone money/ voucher, she cba to actually think about what they might like!)

And oh yes, I am not allowed to vent, someone else ALWAYS has it worse. /all about me, sorry, suffice to say I recognise a LOT of these in her!

Oh and SHE accused ME of that bc I bought Dnieces cuddly elephant toys, bc I like elephants. Um. They were f*cking babies, don't think they had their own tastes yet, they just like cuddly things...

Stratter5 - you made me cry. You could be me. What suddenly came to mind for me re toxic parent or people tho is: has anyone ever done an 'intervention' with someone like that and what happened? The books mostly say one to one confrontation is usually just met with denial so what if the family concerned/colleagues concerned ALL support each other and confront the toxic person? I ask because my toxic bosses boss has suggested we do this - I am kind of fascinated/horrified by the idea. I have no idea how she would react and no idea what my colleagues would say, but I think they would try to be tactful and she will therefore not get the hint, or, take it on board....

sazzle, when you talk of "intervention"

do you mean a proper intervention headed by a psychiatrist/psychologist, who has thoroughly discussed the "patient/person/co worker" in detail, individually with every person involved in the intervention, and as a group, and everything, including consequences of a failed intervention are agreed upon and documented?

or do you just mean some kind of half cocked group-confrontation by a group of co-workers?

if it's the latter then I just see it as a confrontation and "intervention" is way too strong (and misleading) word for it.

XH and DD1 went to speak to her. What they reported back was twisted, hideous lies about me, flat denial, tears, and emotional blackmail about her health. All par for the course, as far as I can tell, and she told DD she was lying, despite then having text proof of what had actually happened.

Neither she, nor my sister, can do no wrong. In their eyes, it is always either my fault, or someone else's if I've not been available to blame. We are completely NC with them now. I have absolutely no contact with any of my relatives, and tbh it's a relief.

Interventions are pointless, the only way they could work is if the target actually has a complete about face, and accepts responsibility. And that's going to happen when hell freezes over, in my mum's case. It would mean admitting she's a bad parent, and a self obsessed fantasist.

Sleepygene - apparently we have a mental health policy and there is a psychiatrist/counsellor the company refer people to, who would be present on the basis of the company has a mental health duty of care. I think this is more for her team than for us going off what he said (2 grievances from 2 team members off with stress are in process as we speak). I think that's prob to cover his bum if it all kicks off but I am kind of horrified and don't want to go - I am a total coward on anything like that, have comeout in a rash on my neck just typing this and my heart is racing too. That's the effect she has on me. Its time to resign isn't it?

sazzle this all sounds HIGHLY inappropriate. Her line manager needs to discuss with her and refer to MH person if she desires it on the basis of the verbal warning she is receiving re. her conduct.

She can't either receive such a verbal warning if no steps have been taken to support her in the first place unless it is a serious and outright breach of employment conditions!

However toxic she may be, she has employee rights same as anyone.

sazzle, I have to agree with hardyfool... this sounds totally inappropriate. I am not saying that with MH issues that there is no place for proper interventions, but this just sounds so half cocked that whilst the problem co-worker might be a toxic bully, there are tried and testing manners (not to mention laws) to deal with work place bullying. An "intervention" with a psychiatrist/counsellor and a few co-workers is ...... well it is absolutely not what I understand when I hear of a MH intervention and no matter how much of an arse this woman is, I personally would take no part in it as it is just bullying given another name. The workplace is simply not the place for these kind of interventions. Why on earth is she not being dealt with in the traditional manner of verbal warnings etc?

Would it be ok to ask what country you're in? As this sounds like it can't possibly be the UK. At least I hope not.

Agree with Ahardyfool and SleepyGene. This intervention sounds like humiliation. It not only won't work, it will make her behaviour worse as she will feel humiliated. And if she does have MH issues and behaviour isn't entirely under her control, it's frankly cruel.
There are, as others have said, proper procedures.

Its the UK but the boss who came up with this isnew to the UK and from middle east. I think he envisages it as more a 'feedback' meeting than a proper intervention so apols if I have misled people there/used wrong term, but I think he was genuinely trying to help. I think he is a bit carried away with his being nominated as the Mental Health Champion for our area, there has been a big drive re how wonderful it is as a company that we realise how important MH is etc. I still think its not for me and could get nasty but I know that's my fear and horror re confrontation. I don't have the skills emotionally to not get all pathetic which embarrasses me, but I am working on it and now I can do it one to one thos still nervously, its just groups which I find terrifying.