To want to understand WHY some people are so toxic?

[queensansastark]

I mean know there are toxic people, MIL is one, and loads if threads here indicate that. But WHY? I find myself round and round in circles thinking BUT WHY are they like that? Do they realise that they are poisonous with their attitudes, words and deeds? And if you were one such, or other people think so, would you have the self awareness to recognise that you are toxic?

In my dad's case, he was a alcoholic narc. who saw his role as the revered patriarch of the family and mine and my children's roles as his worshipping progeny. He would react abusively when I did anything to contradict his world view- such as not letting him invite him and his slapped arse face girlfriend round so I could cook them dinner.

I think in his case he'd genuinely convinced himself he was entitled to this adoration. He'd talk about what a great father he'd been to me and how ungrateful and difficult I was when in reality he'd been a typical DV, absentee drunk.

Every now and then he'd sober up and try to make amends, but these moments were few and far between by the end.

ohfourfoxache it isn't that black and white at all and I think that it sits better under the Personality Disorder umbrella than the Mental Health one. Toxic behaviour can be either nature or nurture, although the two merge so much that it would be impossible to define exact roots. One can be toxic without a personality disorder, although it is likely that there has been some form of circumstantial mental health problems like depression that has been a catalyst. Sadly it is virtually impossible to separate a personality disorder from the toxicity as they are intrinsically linked. Narcissism is often a learnt disorder, although there is suggestion that a genetic predisposition can help along the way.
"We need to talk about Kevin" is supposed to be one of the most accurate portrayals of a psychopathic child there is - it is pretty chilling viewing.

Exactly madrigals - one can have mental health issues without toxicity, however toxicity often comes with some sort of MH or PD. By toxicity I mean really true toxicity, not the "bit of a twunt" behaviour.

Madrigals that sounds really, really hard - especially as she was so reluctant to engage with services. I can understand the reluctance - my experience of them has been pretty crap. I'm on ADs (likely to be for a long, long time) and I consciously make an effort not to be anything like toxic. Sometimes I go too far the other way

Asteria you've just put into words what I think I was thinking when I posted - that it can sit better under the personality disorder umbrella.

Agree with Asteria and Madrigals, well put.

mrswilly, there are often differences in the way girls and boys in the same family are brought up. The mother may have 'responsibility' for the girls and the father for the boys. The dynamic of an unhealthy relationship between mother and father is passed down - if dad's abusive and mum's submissive and placatory, then father's influence on son and mother's influence on daughter reproduces the model of 'how women/wives act' and 'how men/husbands act'.

There's also the whole 'golden child/scapegoat' dynamic. Toxic parents will often choose one child to be 'perfect' and the other to be the 'bad kid'. They'll then feed tension and animosity between the children by drip-feeding each one nasty gossip or woe about the other. This happened to me and my brother. Luckily we saw through the crap and are close now.

My MIL is very toxic. I have been so mixed up. The 'did she just say that?' 'Did that just happen?' 'How did she manage to turn that around like that?'

Mil still states she has done nothing wrong, doesnt know why we hate her so much and doesnt know what shes done wrong

I lurk Gransnet sometimes just to see if she pops up on there. Theres a few grans on there who are no contact with their GC and say they have done nothing wrong. I cant help but think that they are like my mil.

I have only ever really known two very toxic people. One was a boss and she was horrendous. I had to learn very quickly how to deal with her because she could reduce me to tears (private tears, I would never give her the satisfaction of knowing she had upset me.) She had many poodles and arse lickers and that's why she could be like she was. She was feted and adored because if she took against you it was hell. No one stood up to her. I did but it cost me a lot. The only way I could deal with her in my head was thinking what a sad person she was - so insecure. I don't envy her life (despite her riches and lucky lucky life). Imagine being in her head, I think to myself.

The other truly toxic person was someone I had a relationship with before I met my DH. Can't go into details but needless to say he could only survive by being always right, the best at everything and thinking he was truly superior to the rest of the human race, and to achieve that he had to pull other people down continually, me included. I pity him. To be so unsure of yourself by always having to prove yourself must mean huge huge insecurity. He was deluded, nasty, manipulative, mean and cruel. Inside his head must be hell. I can see that now. Having 'experienced' him and his toxic ways was one of the most valuable life lessons I've ever had. Never again.

Both of these toxic people were very different but they had one thing that was constant with both of them. They were never ever wrong.

mommy (and anyone else who's experienced toxic DMs/DGMs/MILs), you might find this interesting:

Characteristics of narcissistic mothers

I read it yesterday and it was like a tick-list made just for me. It really helped me with the 'Did that just happen?' 'Am I going nuts or what?' thoughts.

a terror of admitting fault in themselves

It's often inferiority complexes and massive insecurities

An abusive childhood in which their own self, personality, security was squashed and never allowed to develop properly

Some good points but particularly agree with these ^^ from PPs.

I think the word toxic is just another irregular verb.

I'm forthright, you're outspoken, they're toxic.

I think it's easy to see someone as toxic when you don't get on with them - but there's a distinct possibility not only that they see the situation quite differently from you, but that they believe you to be the toxic party.

Going to have a look now, thank you Adam :)

I'm really lucky. Even though DH was blinded by his mother for years, her needs above everyone elses even when i was pregnant and we had a newborn, he slowly started seeing that it was effecting me and his child..not just him.

He then knew the things she was doing and saying wasnt normal. Its not normal for your wife to end up in therapy because of your mother.

Its been over a year since we have seen her. Its been lovely.

Once she's constructed these fantasies of your emotional pathologies, she'll tell others about them, as always, presenting her smears as expressions of concern and declaring her own helpless victimhood. She didn't do anything. She has no idea why you're so irrationally angry with her. You've hurt her terribly. She thinks you may need psychotherapy. She loves you very much and would do anything to make you happy, but she just doesn't know what to do. You keep pushing her away when all she wants to do is help you.

^ this sticks out for me. Its so odd how all these people are exactly the same

My MIL is toxic. I say that, not because I don't get on with her, but because nobody gets on with her. She does not like anyone and nobody likes her - which is really, really sad.

She is the most difficult and unloveable person I have ever encountered, I find her impossible to comprehend or understand. She cannot be bothered with anyone, including her own children and grandchildren. She is entirely self centred.

She dislikes any closeness and intimacy.

She does not seem to feel things the same as other people, so she is never able to respond to people with any empathy or kindness.

She will never admit to being wrong or apologise.

She does not know when to shut the fuck up.

What has made her like this?

We are certain she is on the spectrum (not just my opinion, my DH works in this field & my SIL has a child on the spectrum). This, of course, would never have been picked up and addressed in her childhood, so she has received no help for this.

We are also certain she has an eating disorder, she is so skinny and obsessed with people's weight - it is the primary way she judges people.

She has a massive inferiority complex and uses her weight and her wealth to make herself feel better than other people, as she thinks everyone is judging her. Probably because she judges everyone.

Sadly, comprehending some of the reasons a toxic person is toxic, does not make them any less toxic.

I wonder if they just lack basic human emotions. One thing which will always stay with me is when we were children my toxic sister held a knife up to my mum and I was sitting on the stairs crying and my sister turned round to me and said "why are You crying? " she seemed genuinely surprised that I was upset, and I thought maybe she expected me to be thinking oh well I'm alright, she's not pointing the knife at me!!!!

My MIL is toxic. I say that, not because I don't get on with her, but because nobody gets on with her. She does not like anyone and nobody likes her - which is really, really sad.

She is the most difficult and unloveable person I have ever encountered, I find her impossible to comprehend or understand. She cannot be bothered with anyone, including her own children and grandchildren. She is entirely self centred.

She dislikes any closeness and intimacy.

She does not seem to feel things the same as other people, so she is never able to respond to people with any empathy or kindness.

She will never admit to being wrong or apologise.

She does not know when to shut the fuck up.

You have described my MIL. Everything i agree with 100%

Ive noticed with my MIL it was about getting her own way and control. Aslong as she got that, it was ok.
DH would do it to keep her happy because it was the easiest thing to do.

Then I came along and our DD not long after. Everything changed. He had his own family and he had to put our needs before hers and she HATED it.

Her behaviour carried on and i was abit 'ay? Has she just acted/said that'

When we had our 1st scan, his mom slated and belittled DH infront of everyone because he couldn't afford a bunch of flowers for me. I just kept saying i didnt want flowers!! We was moving house and didnt want to waste money and she kept going on and on. It was vile. He broke his heart after we went to bed and i was just disgusted. The next morning she was her normal self.
That isnt normal.

Her feelings are the only one that matters. If we have upset her by defended ourself we had step FIL on the phone letting us know how upset MIL is. Oh and she's allways ill. Allways. When we have a cross word

My MIL has fallen out with her entire family. She insists its all them.
Hates everyone she works with. Bitches all of them. Obviously its every single one of them.

She cant do enough for FIls side. Allways doing favours etc. Up their arses. She then slags them off to me. Its fascinating.

.

Toxic people seem to think no one has feelings except them. They also don't seem to admit they can ever do anything wrong.

In psychoanalytic terms they seem to project a lot - all their "bad stuff" is projected onto others. Once they label the other person as the rude, lazy, under achieving, difficult one it enables them to avoid thinking of themselves in these terms and also enables them to deride and punish the "other" who now embodies those negative emotions. This is where scapegoating starts. The golden child is the flip of this where a person is randomly assigned all the wonderful qualities and by fawning all over them you can show how you, by association also have these wonderful qualities.

The next step is the person being projected onto coming to believe they really are those terrible things - very common with toxic parents' children.

How nature and nurture interact is debatable but it is acknowledged that a true psychopath or true sociopath has different reactions to seeing fearful faces and that they seem to have different brain reactions to emotional stimuli when hooked up to brain scanners. This suggests some people may be genetically disposed to be less caring - possibly.

However if you took two pretty normal kids and brought one up in a loving home with lots of food and emotional interaction and love they would turn out very differently from the child brought up by being told they were rubbish and being hit and verbally abused.

Also, they have done studies that found that children whose mothers/carers resolved disputes by asking their young child to think about how the other child is feeling were likely to have far fewer behavioural and emotional problems in later school life. I think this shows caring about and thinking about others is a learned skill.