To want to understand WHY some people are so toxic?

[queensansastark]

I mean know there are toxic people, MIL is one, and loads if threads here indicate that. But WHY? I find myself round and round in circles thinking BUT WHY are they like that? Do they realise that they are poisonous with their attitudes, words and deeds? And if you were one such, or other people think so, would you have the self awareness to recognise that you are toxic?

But 'toxic' isnt a proper 'thing' is it, with clearly defined parameters? It is merely an informal adjective which is useful to describe someone that one perceives to be highly unpleasant.

In real life the only times I have really heard anyone use 'toxic' outside of the context of poisonous chemicals is Sue Palmer's 'Toxic Childhood' to describe how the modern world is affecting chikdren, and the Britney Spears song!

Otherwise its usually just 'oh he/she is a total bitch/bastard/cunt/bellend/insert word of choice here'!

Look, I'm damn' sure there are toxic people out there. But I think they're rare. I'm in my forties and I've probably come across the amount of people one would expect an average 40something to have met. But I have simply never met someone who I could honestly describe as toxic - even when I'd like to be able to as it would give me carte blanche to dislike them.

depending on which statistics you look at, narcissistic personality disorder is thought to affect around 5-10% of the general population.

I don't know if I'm lucky, and of course it's perfectly possible that I do go round with my eyes shut.

I think you are failing to realise that people can put a good front on for the world at large. It's highly possible you live next door to a narc or work side by side with one or play tennis weekly with one. You might not notice it and neither would any other "superficial" contacts, but I would bet money their husbands, wives and children notice it. A lot of people with personality disorders function fairly well in fairly superficial relationships, it's only in close relationships where their issues are unmissable. Some NPD's have no friends and fall out with everyone around them all the time, they simply can't sustain relationships of any type for any normal length of time. Not all NPDs are like that though, some can manage fine to pull the wool over the eyes of everyone around them, many are very very charming, funny and well liked individuals..... that is.....until you get to know them well. Then the true colours are revealed.

be happy you haven't met one ;-)

In my opinion (having recently gone NC with TM and narc siblings), I find the siblings or family members who "enable" the toxic person are just as toxic as well.

I was in the position of they were all enabling each other, so I was extremely isolated within my own family. I spent years waiting for my siblings to ask my side of the story, but it never happened. When they fell out with TM sporadically they would download it all on me but never, ever link it to the Narc behaviour that I received all the time from TM.

Ohfour and Adam - neither of you insulted me in the least. You just pointed out that the fact that I've not met a toxic person doesn't mean they don't exist - which is obviously true. And yes, I probably am lucky.

It was another poster told me that the only reason I'd never met a toxic person was: "because you do not have the awareness, knowledge or insight to recognise toxic behaviour." And actually I don't think I do lack awareness, knowledge or insight in everyday life (though as I said earlier, on being called toxic - I would say that, wouldn't I?)

On the semantics point: yeah, it's not very well defined and has been bandied about too much in popular culture.

On the 'I never hear this in real life' or 'only on MN' point: this is a site with nearly 5 million users. It's going to contain a lot of stuff that any one given user has no experience of.

Sleepy do you know what % of the population have been diagnosed with npd? I'm just curious, please don't take this as me being awkward in any way, I'm genuinely curious - I wonder how many people are toxic without being npd?

It's just hit a bit of a raw nerve with me, I think. I have generally tried to distance myself over the last 2 years from people who I feel behave in ways that are predominantly toxic. But I'm now 19/40 with dc1 and I know that the people I've struggled so hard to distance myself from are now wanting to get re-involved with my life.

I don't want to de-rail (really, I'm not a narc!), but in all honesty I'm scared.

Spectacular x post

I think it is perfectly possible to get well into adulthood and not encounter this behaviour. I would have been sceptical about it existing as much myself until I encountered one at close quarters and saw the long term effects it has had.
To the outside world they're lovely and funny and socially adept but in private a totally different person appears. And when they tell outsiders how badly they've been treated everyone genuinely believes them. The only clue might be in how little they have of previous relationships and friendships carried through life.

fox, it's hard when people want to invade your life again. And if your experience is anything like mine, then they will not give up, compromise or take no for an answer until you give in to what they want.

But you've obviously built good boundaries over the last two years, and you can stick to them. The rage you get in response is scary, but the only alternative is to say 'Yes, it's OK for you to treat me like that, come on in.' Which isn't an option, and isn't worth any temporary peace you get in return.

How's your RL support? Good friend group? Supportive family members? Keep good people around you, to remind you of who you really are so that you stay on track and don't get sucked into any dramas or projections about you being a bad person for staying distant. Keep it neutral, don't give anyone anything they can use against you, disengage if you're being sniped at.

Have you seen a counsellor or therapist? They can be tremendously helpful at these times, to get you through transitions and help you stay stable and healthy. Not cheap, but if you can do it it's worth it. The BACP 'Find a Therapist' page is a good place to start.

foxache, different studies give (often wildly) different figures. I think for the US the last big study put it at 1% of the general population having an official NPD diagnosis, but was estimated that at least 5% fit the criteria to get the diagnosis. Figures for the UK are very similar. I have read a lot on this subject (we have a couple of NPD diagnoses in our immediate family) and most things I have read over the years tend to agree that somewhere between 1-5% is roughly what we're looking at. American figures will always be unreliable as psychs in the states are very reluctant to diagnose any personality disorder as many insurance companies won't pay for PD treatments, so it's quite usual that someone in the states goes to a psych, is unofficially diagnosed as NPD or another PD, but the official diagnosis is depression or something like that that is often comorbid with PDs, because that way the treatment will be covered by the insurance company. Also don't foget any study that puts NPD at 1% is only accounting for those having had the official diagnosis. Many people with PDs refuse ever to seek help or a diagnosis. Many will only be diagnosed after being referred to a psych for something else like recurrent depression or marriage problems or problems at work.

As for how many people are toxic without being NPD ?

yikes. how long is a piece of string ? don't forget even water can be toxic if you consume enough of it.

IMO the word toxic is being used accurately when used to describe genuine NPD people, even if they don't have the official diagnosis. However on MN and in life in general it's often used to describe people who are just selfish, or difficult or argumentative. IMO in those instances it is being used wrongly (or rather, far too lightly). But I am not committing a crime when I say I am suffering from depression when really I am just feeling a bit down this week. So people calling their selfish friend toxic...well they are free to do so. But I would like to take them by the hand and show them PROPER toxic ;-)

Gene - I think I over-simplified for the sake of brevity. My comparison of PD versus MH was merely a way of defining the areas between the various "mental health" conditions that are called Personality Disorders an those that are not.
I do agree with what you said about narcissistic and toxic being bandied about as a cover all term for twatty behaviour, but there is a big difference between being Narcissistic (which all humans are to a certain degree) to being a Narcissist. The toxic behaviour is largely, but not exclusively found, as a part of the personality disorder symptoms. It is less likely to be found as part of an illness such as Depression.

Baffled, this is exactly why I never tell anyone about my Narc/Toxic family. I don't think it is any of their business and also I have a fear of coming across as a "victim" and in turn they think I am toxic.

I also literally loathe being the centre of attention.

So no one knows, apart from my DP and my children..

Just to let everyone know that I've asked for my post of 13:29 to be removed, as it contains more info about my family history than I'd like to be in the public domain.

I agree with previous posters that 'toxic' is a very vague and subjective term.

If we're talking about NPD then the 1-5% of the population figure is just an estimate and in no way reflective of actual diagnosed cases. I've worked in acute MH for almost two decades on wards and in the community (and prisons and forensic units) and the appropriately assessed and diagnosed (by Psychiatrists after a good length of time of observation and good knowledge of history, relationships etc) cases of NPD are not numerous at all.

Of course i'm not saying that many perhaps don't come to the attention of MH services/Criminal justice system but certainly, formally diagnosed cases are not anywhere near the 1-5% of the population figure.

But if we ARE talking about NPD then those people have a mental disorder. It is part of their make-up, they don't want to be this way and aren't deliberately being like it. In no way am I excusing or minimising the harm they can cause but I pity them.

Some of the saddest and most debilitated people I've known have had NPD or anti social personality disorders. I'm not saying that they're sad usually, because they're not but I'm sad for them.

RaRa I hope I didn't upset you.

Two good books: Toxic Parents and Toxic Inlaws. Essential reading for anyone with toxic family members.

I will be honest with you - I was a toxic person.

I learned it from my mother. I learned how not to be toxic after she told me she no longer wanted me and I ended up in a care/treatment home as a teen.

I suspect she learned it from her mother. If it is all you know, unless you make a conscious choice to change, you may well see the world around you as toxic since you can't see it in yourself

I know I did

CallmeExhausted are you saying that those who see toxicity in others are actually themselves the toxic ones?

I used to be toxic too. I learned it from both my parents who were toxic in very different ways. I had a complete mental breakdow and over a number of years went through a sort of 'regene ration' where I 'purged' myself of all the poison my parents had filled me with.

I read countless books on the issue and found it fascinating. I also started identifying other toxic people in my life apart from my parents.

I don't think that you need to be toxic yourself to see that there's something wrong in someone else's behaviour.

When you find out, can you let me know!

Denial aint just a river in Egypt. Toxic people are usually never aware of it /in denial, because its their default/who they are. Why are they like that then? Childhood forms you and your psyche is the widely accepted view. All issues can be traced back to that if you delve deeper.

My mother is textbook, mahoosive unacknowledged anger re being adopted by an 'older' mother who she then never bonded with. She positively vibrates with suppressed anger, loathes anyone happy - because she wasn't and still isn't. If I ever said this to her she would totally and utterly deny it even tho I am halfway thru a degree in counselling and my own counsellor made this diagnosis of her and said I had Stockholm Syndrome (whereby you start to defend your abuser or commonly, in hostage situations, your hostagetaker as a means of survival).

'vibrates with anger' is such a good expression. I sense this in a lot of toxic people I have come across. They make me feel tense and on edge even if they are being perfectly nice to me. I can often sense a volcanoe just below the surface.

tuesday, LadySybil I was not at all saying that all of those who see toxicity in others are themselves toxic - what I was trying to say is that I personally know no one who in the heat of the moment could look at themselves and say "yeah, I am toxic". So, with that being said, the individual you feel is "toxic" may not have the slightest idea how their actions affect others. If that is the case, then it stands to reason that an individual (any individual) can be toxic and not realise it.

With much introspection and retrospection, I can say without a doubt that I was one damn toxic individual years ago, though.

I see it as more of an allergy than a blanket "poison". Just like "narcissistic" is thrown around as a £10 buzz word (I work in the mental health field and bona fide Narcissistic Personality Disorder has a very strict diagnostic profile - the people most of you are referring to are self absorbed) I see most people who are "toxic" are selectively so.

The person who to me is toxic may have friends and family who love them dearly. The part of them that I "react" to does not necessarily affect others in the same way.

I am hardly a perfect person - I am an introvert, tend to be "closed" and build walls that protect me and few are allowed behind them. To others, that might make me toxic - but I endeavour not to hurt others.

If that makes me toxic, then mea culpa.

Please note - I wrote a far better reply earlier, but the internet ate it. I am not saying that those who see toxicity in others are toxic - what I am trying to say is those who are (or seem) toxic are likely unaware.

You see, my toxic person is considered toxic by everyone - no one loves her dearly, believe me.

She is isolated, disliked by her family and largely friendless. That her children strive to maintain a level of contact with her is a credit to their kindness and ability to have developed teflon coating over the years.

When I tell my friends how she behaves they can't believe it is possible, but I am not one for exaggeration so they know it must be true. It is hard to believe someone can care so little for anyone but themselves.

However, if any one of my friends or family have met her, even briefly, they know that I am speaking nothing but the truth. You can sense that 'vibrating with anger' (great phrase) just below the endless verbal diarrhea and you can physically see them back off.

Real toxic people are quite scary as well as deeply deeply sad. My MIL is not happy, she is angry and bitter and odd.