to not know what to do about Santa

[KleineDracheKokosnuss]

DH suggested I ask you lovely ladies for advice . And yes, I know it's not even Halloween yet...

I have a DD, who is two. We are coming up to her first Christmas where she might have a vague idea of what is going on and could understand a little about the various customs. I'm not religious, so Christmas for me is just a mid-winter feast/party/bit of time off work that I can spend with my DH/DD. The problem I have is what to do about St Nick. I can't decide if I should tell her he is real (and have to disabuse her later/risk having her spot that mummy lied) or perhaps take a different approach (in which case what approach?).

In part, I wonder if Terry Pratchett has it right and you have to tell children the small lies (tooth fairy, Santa) in order that they can later wrap their minds around the big 'lies' we use in society in order to be society (truth, justice,...). On the other hand, it just feels really wrong to me.

Knitted and Lillian - no not German.

On the lying front - yes, it is a big thing for me*. I want DD to know that I will tell her the truth to the best of my knowledge. There are enough people in the world who will lie to her, without me joining in. That's the reason I've decided that I can present FC as a story that is fun to hear about, but I won't tell her he is real/leave out mince pies/tell her that Santa won't come if she isn't good or doesn't go to bed/give her a present "from santa". I know he is not real, therefore, for me, it would be very wrong to be actively telling DD that he is real and acting to reinforce that belief.

*For clarity - I am not saying (and would never say) that lies should never be told. They have their uses and are sometimes necessary, all of which can the learned by DD in time. However, most of the time, people could just tell each other the truth, and there are ways to be tactful without telling outright lies.

I have to say I don't get all this 'you must lie to toddlers business', I don't find I lie about those kinds of things at all, there's rarely any need to, a child-sized version of the truth will usually fit the bill.

It seems odd to me to lie about some of this stuff:

The injection will hurt quite a bit, but it will feel better again after and you'll get a sticker. It will stop you getting poorly which wouldn't be very nice at all.

It really hurts doesn't it, it will do for a minute, then it will start to go away. (If it doesn't, they get paracetamol, which will help it go away!)

I wouldn't say I'll help in a minute if I wasn't going to. I either say it and mean it or say I can't help you right now, you'll have to try by yourself.

If you chew your nails they could bleed and hurt you. It's not good to put your fingers in your mouth all the time because that's how you can pick up colds.

Seriously why lie about any of that?! Bonkers. Why not the real reason? Some occasions where a truth is too big or too painful for them to cope with, yes a temporary white lie may be kinder, but I think those occasions are not every day and you use your judgement on when they are necessary.

I like playing pretend with magic and reindeer, but, no, I find it a bit much when people continue it at all costs, lying when children ask, making more lies to cover the original lie etc. There is a middle ground where you can enjoy the fantasy without constantly bending over backwards to put one over on them.

Gosh Kleine don't you think that you are taking it all a bit too seriously and sucking a lot of the fun out of one of the most wonderful times of any childs life.

I am all for having principles when raising children but this seems..... well it seems harsh to me.

For goodness sake OP!

Santa, Cinderella, Frozen, the very Hungry Caterpillar- all fiction- not lies!

Are you going to make your DD only read non fiction and watch documentaries because they are not "lies". It's time to relax a bit.

No child ever ceased to trust their parents when they became old enough to question magic.

Ask any teacher about the value of a rich imagination.

op seriously you sound like your projecting onto your child. some one let you down lied to you? who knows, but your child is a totally separate entity and I would question very carefully projecting your own ideas about bigger stuff onto her like this.

Most of us all seem to whilst going along with it - also take it lightly, its a huge machine that rolls into action and most simply roll with it, and happily so.

we dont sit our dc down and solemnly say - your going to learn about FC - he wont come if your bad, he is real never doubt him

maybe your scarred by religion? who knows but I agree with others your taking it too seriously.

my mother passed on the most important skill in life and she had a hard life with many many troubles and problems.

Have a sense of FUN and Humor. I am not able to try and look on the bright side like she did but I always keep trying.

it doesnt seem right to me to weigh down a poor innocent 2 year old with heavy issues.

you think your doing your child this huge favour, your really not she wont care and I suspect she will when older get carried along with it, as it wil come from all angles.

Also, if you're a Christian, there is plenty that's amazing about Christmas that is real

plenty would tell you its all a load of bunkum and not real at all.

how do you feel about god created hte world in 7 days, versus - evolution and dinasours etc?

my poor children don't celebrate christmas so therefore don't get told anything about Father Christmas beyond "most of the people in your class think it's real and it would be very rude to say otherwise"

my eldest is 4, saw santa last year with his class, had his photo taken, then showed me with "that is me with a man dressinged up!"

we celebrate the winter solstice with food and lights and the children are thoroughly spoiled with presents. If you saw them on the solstice morning you'd know you don't need santa to make that time of year magical.

*plenty would tell you its all a load of bunkum and not real at all.

how do you feel about god created hte world in 7 days, versus - evolution and dinasours etc? *

You can follow the story of the nativity without having to sign up to every word in the Bible. You don't have to believe in God to enjoy a nativity play.

I don't remember anyone being traumatised when they found out Santa or the Tooth Fairy wasn't real. In most cases it's just a natural progression as your DCs get older they'll (a) realise it can't be true by use of logic and (b) an older child will probably tell them. Long after both my DCs knew Santa wasn't "real" we still left reindeer food on the lawn, mince pie and beer for Santa and a carrot for Rudolph. I got up at Stupid O'Clock to leave glitter footprints from the chimney through to the front door every Christmas Morning, they loved it, they knew it wasn't "real" but were slightly heartbroken the first year I didn't do it (they were 15 and 11 at this point) so I reinstated it the next year and will probably continue until they both leave home. We all need our own little family traditions and magic in our lives.

I'm agnostic/borderline atheist and will be telling my DC about Santa. I'll leave out the nasty bits like no presents (or coal or switches ) for naughty kids. With the nasty bits taken out I think it's fun and no harm done.

(Same applies to the Bible actually except there's a lot more nasty bits).

IME by the time a child is old enough to discover Santa isn't real, they are also old enough to understand that it is intended as a fun story - just like Disney stories etc - rather than any sort of malicious lie.

Although, I suspect that these days DC find out quite a lot earlier, courtesy of The Internet.

To call the magic of FC a lie is such a strong word. All these imaginary people Tooth Fairy etc are magical stories that enrich and enhance childhood. For years I have watched the wide eyed 5 year old enter my Rainbow unit and eagerly approach(or hide behind me!) FC at the Christmas party, hide from the wicked pirate in wide games outside, and watch for the fairies visiting us at night on our sleepovers. Two years later as a leaving 7 year olds they are whispering to me" I know that's not really true"- but they know not to spoil it for the younger ones. Nobody has told them the truth ,just as nobody has lied to them.They have grown in understanding.

ebwy, dh used to do Father Christmas at ds's school, and managed to get a Year 5 doubter questioning her lack of faith... he was leaving the Grotto at the end of the day, still in the full garb, when he bumped into a family we know. Beard was so full he was unrecognisable and using his special FC voice, he said 'hello you are the two little Persian girls' and chatted to them about Christmas. The little sis (in ds's class) was thrilled, the big one told her Mum 'I didn't think FC was real any more, but he knew all about us!'.

Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes,_Virginia,_there_is_a_Santa_Claus

Original letter text:

www.cs.cmu.edu/~pausch/Randy/Randy/santa.htm

Don't do it OP! There's plenty of time to be disappointed when you're a grown up. However there's only a very short time for believing in magic when you're little, and it's a wonderful thing, an intrinsic part of what being a kid is. I'm with the New York Sun and Sir Terry on this one.

Apparently I once had a very detailed conversation with FC aged about 5. Never once did I realise it was my DF behind the beard.

You can follow the story of the nativity without having to sign up to every word in the Bible. You don't have to believe in God to enjoy a nativity play

of course and thats what we do.

Life is grim enough, let there be Father Christmas!

I honestly don't feel life is remotely grim!

You can do Santa without pretending it's completely real. If you insist it's absolutely real now then you are setting yourself up for a problem later. It can be a shared game if you answer "is it real" with something like "well it's fun isn't it" and a smile.

That's how kids play anyway isn't it. When the stuffed dinosaur knocks down the lego building they don't think it's really a prehistoric predator doing it, but they enjoy the pretence.

That's pretty much my stance, Back.

I'm just a bit taken aback by HOW many people seem to think that believing - absolute belief - in FC is the only way to enjoy childhood and Christmas!

It is the strange thing of MN- in RL I have no idea how people do Christmas. It really doesn't matter as long as that if you tell your children 'the truth' you make sure they respect other view points.
People should not feel they 'have' to do anything. If you are not comfortable with it then don't do it- you are not going to do it well,anyway, if you don't believe in it yourself.

"It is the strange thing of MN- in RL I have no idea how people do Christmas"

Really? It's a talking point amongst my friends and family. My f good friend is German and I love hearing about all the German customs and traditions ( and have pinched a few). My neighbour buys biscuits for her children to give to Santa and tells the kids she baked them. Santa leaves all their presents in a big sack. My family are very christian and tell the little ones from an early age there is no Santa. My gym instructor is a JW and doesn't do christmas but treats her family in the January sales.

Why wouldn't you know how other people do christmas? It's an interesting topic of conversation for many in RL.

I haven't read the thread. I can't be bothered.

How is this even a problem?!?! Tell her, don't tell her, who gives a fuck?

Will know that mummy lies?!?!?! Seriously?!?!!

This is only ever a problem on Mumsnet. The rest of the world just gets on with it.

Em because this is a discussion site?

People start threads every day about what to put in kids packed lunch or what colour to paint their kitchen.

Why should this be any different? If it bores you move along.

Yes. Thank you for being condescending.

There are so many more important things to discuss than whether or not some fat fucker in a red suit brings gifts or if your parents spent too much money on you themselves.