to not know what to do about Santa

[KleineDracheKokosnuss]

DH suggested I ask you lovely ladies for advice . And yes, I know it's not even Halloween yet...

I have a DD, who is two. We are coming up to her first Christmas where she might have a vague idea of what is going on and could understand a little about the various customs. I'm not religious, so Christmas for me is just a mid-winter feast/party/bit of time off work that I can spend with my DH/DD. The problem I have is what to do about St Nick. I can't decide if I should tell her he is real (and have to disabuse her later/risk having her spot that mummy lied) or perhaps take a different approach (in which case what approach?).

In part, I wonder if Terry Pratchett has it right and you have to tell children the small lies (tooth fairy, Santa) in order that they can later wrap their minds around the big 'lies' we use in society in order to be society (truth, justice,...). On the other hand, it just feels really wrong to me.

To be honest, I can't believe how unpleasant some of the comments about those of us who decide not to go along with the elaborate Christmas myth in quite the extremes some of you do - we are not 'denying' our children celebrations, presents or fairy lights, trips to Santa's grotto or stilling their imaginations.

We just say 'it's a story' fondly. Some of you say 'it's real' and still yet some of you say 'it's definitely real, and look at the 'evidence' should you doubt it is real.'

My childhood was okay. I lived in a beautiful home in woodland and meadows and streams, but I was a lonely child (lost my mum young and all my grandparents.)

I do really think there's something a bit sad in the view that the window between 3 and 7 is the only time you can experience magic and wonder.

I experienced it when I was 19 and had my first job in an old people's residential home and the old ladies smiled with delight and grabbed my hand when it was my shift.

I experience it on a daily basis when I ride my horse, especially when jumping.

I certainly experience it with children!

I experience it in nature - cool autumn evenings at twilight, the beautiful stunning flowers of June and July, the daffodils at spring, the first snowdrops. Definitely at Christmas with all it's beautiful lights - but FC is a tiny part of that.

I experienced it when skydiving.

Honestly, seriously, HOW can some of you think the only way to experience great joy and great excitement is by believing in something that isn't there, when there's so much to enjoy that is? I genuinely don't understand - that's why I've never bothered with FC. I don't need to say "a man will come to give you gifts" because there's a doting mummy and besotted daddy to do that!

As for the "sad" child who watched his cousin on the computer - er, first world problem! - and in my experience children do like to be felt sorry for! I was pretty good at playing that card myself as a child!

I know it's a slightly controversial view but surely if a child is loved and cared for that's all that matters, not how and indeed whether they "do" Christmas!

To class the tradition of Santa Claus as 'lying to children' is to take a very simplistic view of your relationship with them.

Surely children who have been indulged in this fantasy understand that their parents did it in order to generate a magical atmosphere within which to celebrate a traditional festival. If you are going to go down the route that you are completely upfront about everything in their lives at every moment then there will be little room for them to play and experience fantasy and imagination. No tooth fairy, no easter bunny, no surprise birthday presents, etc.

Imagine if you couldn't tell a single white lie. A box arrives at the door with dds birthday present in. "What is that parcel mummy, is that for me?" I would say " no darling, it's just some books for daddy, we'll leave it in his study for him" (white lie) You would have to say, oh yes, it is your birthday present thus spoiling your surprise. Do people really feel betrayed when we understand that someone lied to make our world better?

I find the whole Santa story rank consumerism at its worse. Besides, it's a vulgar American custom.

Buying toys for children is only part of Christmas - but its a fun part. I work hard all year round and if I want to spoil my kids at Christmas and let Santa take the credit so be it. And you are completely wrong about it being a "vulgar American custom".

Honestly, seriously, HOW can some of you think the only way to experience great joy and great excitement is by believing in something that isn't there, when there's so much to enjoy that is?

Who has said this? I certainly don't believe it but having Santa brings extra excitement at Christmas.

Cheese - to be honest my dad never really did the tooth fairy beyond one or two token half hearted attempts (still remember indignantly storming into his bedroom to inform him the tooth fairy hadn't been and him half asleep holding out 50p. I went back out satisfied. How no one concluded I wasn't one with a future in debt collection I don't know! ) and certainly didn't do the Easter bunny.

I don't think those things personally have anything to do with imagination - which isn't a criticism of those who do do them, but they are all 'what's in it for me' - money, chocolate or presents.

That's fine, but it doesn't feed the imagination particularly. I have/had a good imagination but I'm pretty sure it came from a love of books, not FC or the father/tooth fairy!

Tinkerball it has been said, several times on this thread, that the window of opportunity for magic is so short and how can you deny it, etc.

I don't think there's a short window for magic at all. I think it's a shame people think there is.

Chocolate yes it has - but thats not the same as saying "the only way to experience great joy and great excitement" is it?!

Knickers in a twist over nothing.

DS has a log with a smiley face that comes down from the mountains on 1st December and knocks on the front door. He lives under a blanket and DS feeds him and gives him water. On Christmas Eve he hits old faithful Caga Tío with a stick and sings a song about poo, the log then 'shits' sweets and small presents. The look of delight, happiness and wonder on DS' face is priceless. I'm sure he will twig it isn't real eventually (he's 3).

I have just made a little bed including matress, pillow and duvet for DS' favourite bear - is that lying to him? I also made him a red man/green man pedestrian crossing sign out of a kitchen roll inner cardboard tybe which he is obsessed with - again, developing his imagination.

Things can be real when they're grown up.

The window for magic without the opposite reality that there is a lot of sadness and horror in the world is very short. That doesn't mean we can't still enjoy our own brand of magic and joy and hope throughout the rest of life, though.

Father Christmas is obviously not the only way to inject that sense of magic into a child's life. But it's a common narrative that unites the experiences of many children and I do think it's a shame to deprive a child of the opportunity to indulge in it. There's plenty of time for realism in the grown up world.

For what it's worth I never went OTT with my girls. I participated in the narrative but I didn't go to the ends of the earth with elf on a shelf and so on and so forth. They were pretty young when they figured out that it wasn't actually real. But we all played along for the fun of it.

Christmas has never been about huge spends for me, either, as I don't have all that much money. So no, I don't think Santa and rank consumerism are inexorably linked.

We just said we sent the presents to FC and FC delivered them for us. So that cut down on a lot of the lies. It also explained why some kids had more than others.

kids have so many different versions of the story. They can't possibly match up in the playground. They WANT to believe and often ignore the evidence in front of them because they themselves want the magic to continue.

Oh its true that magic and good memories come in forms other than FC.
But personally, I can't relate to the idea of wanting to actively dispel the FC myth.

Are you German OP? When I have zero belief that he is real - of course he's not real. No one expects you to believe in him - all you have to do is play along for a few years until someone at school tells your dd he is not. That happened to my dd at the age of about 5 when her best friend (a. Muslim who didn't celebrate Christmas at all) told her Santa didn't exist - it was just the mummies and daddies who bought the presents. I don't think that has made her distrustful of me - she enjoyed playing along with the fantasy as she could see it was a lot of fun. In fact our most magical Christmas ever was the first year we moved to Berlin. When we got up on the morning of December 6 we found a huge sack of toys and chocolate hanging from the door handle outside the front door. My dcs were 4 and 2 at the time and our lovely German neighbours thought we might not know the tradition of celebrating St Nicholas. Of course. I knew logically that someone must have left it there, but I didn't find out who until the following day so it felt like St Nicholas had really been. It still gives me goose bumps just thinking about it!

I've known Father Christmas isn't real for 25 years but there's still something special about looking out at the sky on Christmas Eve for me and imagining there's a sleigh flying through the night sky.

I'll tell my daughter that Father Christmas is real and I won't feel in the slightest bit conflicted.

It's strange that all of us who were "lied to" as children about father christmas were so let down and traumatised by the whole experience that we choose to spin the magic with our own kids.

You would have thought we would have learned a hard life lesson.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 16-Oct-14 07:13:29 YES

Its still a memory i can call on for a good feeling. ME TOO, IN sometimes scary and bleak childhood, the magic of the anticipation was amazing.

Not much anticipation if you know your parents are doing it .

I find the people who are not bothered are the ones who never had it, which stands to reason.

I was also 70's child and it wasnt even about the presents for me, my mum was never hot on them, it was all about the magic, we had a real fire place, hanging the stocking....and the fact he did come etc....with not very much and some prices left on

Are you German OP?

Yes i was going to ask this too, we have german relatives who dont get Father C either, they do it their way which is fine but there is not much magic there for me.

No expectation, the excitement of going to bed on xmas eve, poking foot out to feel stocking, or seeing that empty stocking bulging with presents, the spread under the tree...

I'll tell my daughter that Father Christmas

I have started to lie and brain wash my two year old, pointing out the big man in the shops, where decs are out.....i am sooo looking forward to this year!

I lie to my boys all the time........
The injection will only hurt a little bit.
If you put a flannel on your (insert hurty appendage) it will stop soon. This works especially well at night, along with using cooling after sun spray as a placebo when all else has failed.
I'll help in a minute.
If you chew you nails you will get belly ache.

We also adhere to FC story. I've asked them if they thought he was real and they said yes. I've also asked them if they believed the bible to be real and we are divided over this one, one believes and one doesn't.

I remember Christmas being such a magical time, without Santa (and his reindeer and elves) there is no magic. Children deserve to believe in magic, fairies and all sorts of wonderful things.

They have their whole adult life to live with reality. Let them have a childhood filled with stories, fantasies and imagination.

Oh thank god MERLYPUSSEDOFF. So do I!

How do people with toddlers not lie? 100% truth all the time. Really!

It's strange that all of us who were "lied to" as children about father christmas were so let down and traumatised by the whole experience that we choose to spin the magic with our own kids.

I don't. My family were very big on Father Christmas but it was more for the adults' benefit than the children's. I didn't feel betrayed when I found out but I did feel exploited. I was 8, I think.

without Santa (and his reindeer and elves) there is no magic

I think my children would disagree! They are hugely excited about Christmas and have plenty of magic and imagination in their lives, don't feel sorry for them! They enjoy playing the Father Christmas game but they know it's a story.

Also, if you're a Christian, there is plenty that's amazing about Christmas that is real - I don't want them to doubt that by muddying the waters with something I tell them is real but isn't. And before anyone starts, they know that not everyone believes in Jesus.

I lie to my boys all the time........
The injection will only hurt a little bit.
If you put a flannel on your (insert hurty appendage) it will stop soon. This works especially well at night, along with using cooling after sun spray as a placebo when all else has failed.
I'll help in a minute.
If you chew you nails you will get belly ache

But don't you worry they will stop trusting you when experience teaches them that what you tell them isn't true? Wouldn't it be better to say, "it will hurt but will be over quickly and then we're going to get a treat..." or something they can trust?

I can honestly say that I don't lie to my children.

I think some people on this thread have a very rigid view of lying - a sort of Lying Is Always Bad view of the world.

I have to say, I never really worry much about lying, it's not really a word I even use much.
I don't even pull my children up for "lying" particularly, I'm more likely to laugh and say "that sounds a silly thing to happen", or say, "well, if you cleaned your teeth, why is your toothbrush still dry" etc.

People sometimes say things that aren't true, it's a completely normal human interaction and it's the way of the world. It can sometimes be good, sometimes be bad, sometimes be funny, or interesting, or magical, or damaging - all sorts of motivations, all sorts of outcomes, but I certainly don't have the view that all "lying" is a negative thing at all.

I wouldn't call FC "lying" anyway, but if it is, then that's fine with me.

One other thing - to me there is a whole world of difference between just not saying something is true, and specifically sitting someone down and telling them it isn't.

But don't you worry they will stop trusting you when experience teaches them that what you tell them isn't true?

Not particularly. I don't lie to her about anything I consider particularly important. The fact I said there were no more Peppa Pigs on TV (60 frigging episodes on DVD and about 100 on demand). I don't think this is likely to lead to a collapse of trust.