To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

[MrsJamin]

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

Certainly sounds sensible. It's like the C of E v some fundamentalist Christian groups and the Reform/Orthodox Jewish schism. They may all share a belief in a God who does not exist and would be better off without their delusions but take different views on what path is needed to find their way to the supposed God.

I may be wrong, but few societies have treated women with more contempt than the English and, unfortunately, under Colonial rule, people tend to assimilate the values of the Colonial power to the point that they assume attitudes prevalent in that Colonial power...

British (not English, as Scots and Irish people were highly, in fact disproportinately, represented in Imperial forces and adminstrators) did not treat their women with any more contempt than any other European or North American society at the time. Saying that they somehow encouraged women to cover would require evidence I doubt you could find.

The same people banned Hindu widows from jumping on their husbands' pyres, incidently.

And the fact that Saudi Arabia wasn't ever a part of the British Empire seems to discredit that argument further.

Fragolino, i have never heard of Dr Taj.

MM has repeatedly held muslim women here responsible for the plight of muslim women in the East.

my fury at you wearing the niqab is that it reinforces the the view that women are responsible for preserving honour and decency in society

Its great for you, who living here has the choice to cover or uncover, but the poor women who actually have to live under an Islamic theocracy don't have that choice

By willingly adopting the Niqab you give succour to those who point to you as a wonderful example of womens enlightenment

If 'educated western women' wear it, then it must be right.What hope does the poor girl in the Swat Valley have to argue against being swathed in yards of fabric in oppressive heat and which hinders her ability to navigate the mountain passes. Clearly the acid in her face is well deserved. (

I posted links to him a few pages back, he is a modern progressive imman who wants to see women praying along side men and said there is no need for segregation or veils.

Conveniently the passages I posted and links have been glossed over

Greengro

All your posts are measured and sensible and totally agree with.

skewers pehaps mm has a back story that Makes her posts so passionate. I think she does and maybe we should listen.

fragolino there are none so deaf as those who don't want to hear.

Dr Taj sounds awesome.

They don't need to it's a want dare say a political statement THEY are banned at Mecca

So that to me says it all

And people can't wear what they want well they can if their dicks for instance

People can wear white to a wedding if they want to make the bride cry

Or pink to a funnel if they want to offend the mourners

Or a low cut top to teach at a all boys high school

But that would make you a dick because it makes everyone else feel like shit

And I also don't get this thing of being invisible if you live or go to in a area Were everyone Is dressed in western cloths you stick out like a soar thumb and are drawing attention to yourself
I have no issue with hair being covered on adults feel. Very sad when I see increasingly babies and primary aged children with them on aided by the schools but don't agree with faces being covered

What possible jobs can you have ffs

We are all told how to dress all of the time if your not sure ask the naked rambler who has served 8 years in jail

It certainly draws attention to yourself if you are covered.
I was surprised in Iran when I was there for work a couple of times that the women has such complicated make up on. Rather sexist to have to spend a lot of time with silly lip sticks etc when men don't but I suppose it was for them one of the only ways of showing their individuality given all the robes etc. ISIL are being more consistent with religious principles by banning make up. i can understand that better than a woman who spends loads of money and time on her clothes and makeup and shoes to please her husband - that is very materialistic and sexist and consumerist and does not appear even to atheists as particularly religious whereas take your average nun or proper Muslim and she probably does not even under the robes have on sexy underwear and make up which would seem to be more consistent with good moral principle.

Thebody, MM's posts are not passionate, they are stereotypical and frankly speaking inaccurate, and blaming women for the world's woes. Great stuff for feminism!

friag Hadnt seen your previous posts about this guy. is this the Taj Hargey you are charmed by?

Credible guy? I think not. Now he is back as a cleric. Yay! He is obviously very charming and good at duping people. The academics were charmed then by his lies, you are obviously charmed now.

I shall leave you feminists to froth over women who wear hijab and niqabs and argue why they are to be held responsible for the world's problems. Peace to you all.

Hi everyone, so sorry that this thread has grown so large without me coming back to individual posters. It's been a really interesting discussion. My concern about saying the right thing was around these issues:

• My lack of real understanding over why women wear the niqab- cultural, religious or relational or mix of the three. I don't assume at all that it isn't a choice for most women but its not clear why some muslim women wear one and others do not. It seems like it's quite a personal issue and choice.
• My awkwardness about broaching the idea with my sons that a woman believes she has the responsibility to cover herself up from a man, and that the responsibility does not lie more with him and his own thought control. DSs obviously don't know yet how a man is attracted to a woman's body (the eldest knows about sex but only in a very simple way) and so this opens up a whole different set of ideas about men and women. I am trying to teach my eldest about consent and choice - that no matter how strongly he wants something to happen, if someone else does not want to take part, then it doesn't happen. I do think there is something in the male psyche that says "but I want this to happen enough for everyone" - and this needs to be deconstructed.
• My belief that human relationships are based on whole face interaction. I struggled to "read" other mums wearing a niqab on the preschool drop-off/pick up as I could hardly see their gaze let alone their smile or frown. In the end I was ultra-friendly and chatty as I couldn't pick up on nuances that you'd normally get whether someone wanted to chat or not. To be cut off from this essential part of human interaction is dehumanising in its purest form IMHO.

I think there are some very surprising opinions on this thread that disrespect any religion and say that they are all about control and all anti-feminist. As a liberal CofE christian I do not agree! It's really important to my family that our faith is respected but so are all the faiths that we live amongst. What is dear to them we must respect and honour, even though we do not feel the same.

skewers lovely.

skewers how funny! So you by passed by previous quotes and links and then knowing nothing about him, you somehow by passed all the positive progressive stuff he is trying to do and you find your.....dubious link!

It does not surprise me, he admits he makes enemies.

Dr Hargey, a clean-shaven imam from Oxford who describes himself as a "thorn in the side of the Muslim hierarchy", had just won a libel claim against a conservative Muslim newspaper that claimed he belonged to a sect which many in his faith believe is heretical. A South African anti-apartheid campaigner who has lived in Britain on and off for the past three decades, Dr Hargey has made many enemies because of his liberal brand of Islam which he preaches from a small assembly hall

Odd that

So now she tells the muslims how dare they come out in full force when they are being told how to dress. If this is what Western feminism is about, then no thank you, I am quite happy with my own set of feminist values which do not dictate to any female how to dress, muslim or non-muslim alike. I do not put the burden of responsibility on a woman who wishes to wear a niqab, to think of the oppressed woman in Swat, nor do I hold a woman who wishes to dress 'skimpily', responsible for the exploitation of women and sex trafficking that goes on around us.

Well said, Skewers

I don't see why I should respect any faith per se. That's like saying all political views should be respected. Being free from religion is being free from imposed rules. I rejected the church because the majority view is still that homosexuality is wrong. I have no respect for that. Only a few weeks ago were women allowed to become bishops!!
I believe in god but I don't limit my views and beliefs to a set of standards largely set as political agenda for a patriarchal age. I will not automatically respect faiths just because people believe and follow them. To do that can be dangerous in more extreme cases, where respect becomes turning a blind eye to inequality, dictatorship and abuse.

I am happy to live in a country where people can dress as they like within reason. I would not bad religious covering except in specific contexts where the face may need to be shown or state schools.

However it is very important feminists, even Islamic feminists, set out the issues over covering up and it is not disrespectful to point those things out just as those women are allowed to say I might burn in hell for being an atheist or men have the right to say all I need is a good XYZ to cure me of feminism. We can seek to lift the scales from the eyes of the oppressed and say they are oppressed in the uK (but not in much of the muslim world which seems to be the area which thinks even giving up your religion deserves death - about ten countries of course all muslim ones say by law you will be killed if you give up your faith). Thankfully women are prepared to fight in the UK for their right of free speech.

No one has answered the, to me perfectly reasonable, question of how do Muslims whether men or women who consider it is necessary to wear niqabs or burkas view women who don't ?

Do they just support a woman's right to wear what they want? Or are they looking at women who are unveiled as being immodest, sluts, not worthy of respect etc?

Clearly in those countries where women have no choice other than to veil those rather nasty value judgements are applied

And to be fair to Mia there seems to be considerable support in this thread for western women adopting the veil but little support for non western women not being forced to.

Presumably it will vary from person to person. In the UK most covered women will not hold those views - that those showing more flesh are sluts. Most humans on the planet are pretty tolerant. However I am not trying to excuse the huge amount of appalling practices currently undertaken supposedly in the name of Islam.

DD asked this exact question to a niquab wearing lady when she was 3. The lady was probably about 20. Her answer to DD:
"because mum told me not to"

Phaedra Stepdoor answered exactly your question a few pages back

"Beast, no, never. Muslims are not allowed to judge people based on appearance. A Muslim would be sinful if they looked down on anyone.

There is a saying of the Prophet Muhammad: god does not look at your appearance, rather he looks at your heart and actions."

Also came across this completely by chance earlier:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/the-niqab-makes-me-feel-liberated-and-no-law-will-stop-me-from-wearing-it

"Beast, no, never. Muslims are not allowed to judge people based on appearance .......Ha, Ha ..... tell that to Australia's most senior cleric:

Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat"

Hilali was quoted in The Australian newspaper Thursday as saying in the sermon: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

"The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he was quoted as saying, referring to the headdress worn by some Muslim women.
www.cbsnews.com/news/muslim-cleric-calls-women-uncovered-meat/

Somehow I am a bit sceptical about that Solosolong

If that is true why is it a crime in certain countries not to wear niqab/burka ?

I saw The Guardian article. To be honest she doesn't sound empowered. She sounds like someone with no self esteem.

I choose what you see. You deal with my mind and personality

Sorry but that sounds like utter tosh.

I'm actually fed up of one justification being that it takes the pressure of having to comply with male ideas of beauty. You know the vast majority of people, men and women, are mainly pretty ordinary looking /nothing to write home about and the vast majority of us don't really care what we are supposed to look like. We just get on with life open faced.

MM, you can't take ONE cleric's name and make the assumption that all other Muslim clerics agree with him. They clearly don't, as you and I both know.

Honestly I think you should just lay it off MM. You've obviously left Islam, fair enough, that's your decision, but why are you constantly attacking it? It's almost like you need to constantly justify to yourself why you are an ex-Muslim now. Get a life.