To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

[MrsJamin]

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

you have not read my posts then

I have clearly stated a few times I am an atheist always have been I strongly believe that all women should have a choice

I find your them stance surprising even for someone who has turned their back on the religion they once believed in (not questioning that)

You are responsible for everything bad that happens to Muslim women in every Islamic country because you wear a hijab/niqab

No. Islam is responsible. You're just endorsing the misogony.

I find your them stance surprising even for someone who has turned their back on the religion they once believed in (not questioning that)

My ire is directed at Islam. Not them. Stop trying to deflect examination of a belief system and shutting down debate by continuously crying prejudice.

Maybe if you personally knew people who have been severely adversely affected by living under Islam's shackles, your concern might be more appropriately placed towards those who truly are suffering prejudice (as a result of Islam)

MistressMia, i am not here to apologise for the wrongs perpetrated by ISIS or the men who want women to cover. I am not responsible for their actions. Nor am I responsible for preserving decency and honour in society. I am responsible for my own actions. You of course would like to hold all niqabis responsible for the plight of the poor women of Swat. Yes, blame women for the woes of the world.

Your little speech about planes, trains and terrorists would make you the poster girl for BNP.

i have not once tried to shut down the argument

i just pointed out that you had mentioned why are you (was that directed at me) not making a stance against

I am a therapist i have worked with many women from all different backgrounds (women's support centre) suffered all different abuse all down to those who want to abuse do and will use any reason too

I am not anti religion in the slightest.

I am pro choice, pro equality, pro diversity and pro inclusion and I can't think of any religion that promotes these values.

Skewers: Your little speech about planes, trains and terrorists would make you the poster girl for BNP.

Yes were it not for the fact that mistress is of Pakistani origin!

There are most certainly instances of prejudice on this thread. As there always are when the subject of Islam is raised. Anyone who suggests otherwise may be deluded, unclear of the definition of prejudice, or actually prejudiced him/herself.

'Twas ever thus.

Mistress, your ire is most definitely directed at them niqabis. So yes, you are prejudiced. As I said, it doesn't matter whether muslim or not, whether eastern or western, a niqabi woman is used to people from all directions, liberated or not, telling her how to dress and to think about honour or sacrifices or sufferings. MM, you go on about how the niqabi is wearing a veil which (in your words) represents that she must preserve certain value system (honour and decency in society) yet you are dictating that a woman must not wear the niqab in order to preserve a different value system in society. You are no different. Both enforcing your views on how the woman should dress. The moral police and you, are both policing - trying to control the niqabi for your own gameplay.

No. Islam is responsible. You're just endorsing the misogony

I find peace, comfort and solace in my faith. I want and choose to believe in God. I try to follow the five pillars to the best of my ability. I pray five times a day. I'm not a perfect Muslim. I don't wear the hijab let alone the niqab. But I choose to believe and I believe in the best of my religion just like all people of faith choose to believe in God for their own spiritual reasons.
I believe that religion is used for the oppression of women. But I am not responsible for that. I am not 'endorsing the misogyny' by choosing to believe in God. It's not fair to say Islam is responsible. I am a Muslim and I am not responsible just like the millions of Muslims who quietly go about their day not being responsible but just believing in God and practising their faith without harming anyone

Lovely post jefferson. Unfortunately, the millions of muslims going about their daily lives doesn't make for interesting reading. Spice it up by demonising/victimising niqabis makes it a whole lot more interesting.

Very moving Jefferson - well said.

I am signing out now but just want to wish everyone of all and no faith a peaceful night and hope that no one feels offended by the debate tonight.

That was certainly not my intention anyway.

Oh the irony of the whole argument against niqab being that it renders the woman invisible. There are more attacks carried out on these women as it is a visible symbol of their religion. Most hate crimes against muslim women are committed because of what they wear. Their attire makes them a target for physical assault. You would think that numbers wearing hijab/niqab should go down, but it is not the case. These women are sending out a strong message that they are proud of their identity and will not be oppressed by the bigots.

Do not the vast majority of us want the same thing to live our lives peacefully

Of course

night to all

yet you are dictating that a woman must not wear the niqab in order to preserve a different value system in society. You are no different.

One value system says that women covering up is a must in order not to tempt men. The other value system says that women can wear what they like and that men are responsible for controlling themselves.

The second value system seems much more equitable to me and doesn't reduce the status of women to being principally sex objects, which is what your value system does. I make no apologies for defending and promoting this second system and taking steps to preserve the status quo.

Not covering has no impact on others. Covering does. That's why there is so much opposition to it.

Your little speech about planes, trains and terrorists would make you the poster girl for BNP

In each atrocity the terrorists have cited religious justification for their actions. The platitudes about Islam being hijacked hold no truck with them. They are merely fulfilling their obligation of Jihad which as you must know is farz. Fighting for Allah, both for defensive and offensive reasons is a central tenet of Islam. Spreading Islam as IS are currently doing and retaliating or spreading fear as AQ did is completely rooted in Islamic theology.

Oh and if we're talking about prejudice, could you have a word with your co-religionists re their treatment of minorities. It was the anniversary last week of the Peshawar Church bombing which killed 80 Christians.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24201240

That's just one atrocity. There are daily occurrences in Africa Asia and the ME of prejudice and hatred from muslims towards non-muslims. Sadly many with far far more serious consequences than any prejudices being faced here by muslims.

The other week we visited Woburn safari park, there were a lot of Muslim ladies wearing niqab. My 6 year old son asked quite loudly if they were ninjas? I said they might be

I would point out to them that in many parts of the world it is normal for women to walk around with no top on - that's normal for those people.
We think it's important for women to cover their breasts - that's normal for us.
In other parts of the world people feel women should cover other parts of their bodies - that's normal for them.

It would be interesting to see a historical study of the use of the niqab. I imagine that the strength of the sun in the desert is a contributing factor, but there certainly seems to be a strong influence from Colonialism. The people most in favor of the niqab are the Wahabi sect from Saudi Arabia, whose seem to have been favored by English Colonialism.

I may be wrong, but few societies have treated women with more contempt than the English and, unfortunately, under Colonial rule, people tend to assimilate the values of the Colonial power to the point that they assume attitudes prevalent in that Colonial power. Moreover the invading forces targetted the wise men in the invaded country. So Islam was stripped of its wise men and the people started to conform to the ideas of the invaders.

This is an area of interest for me but I am no expert.

In countries where FGM is widespread, women say they choose to do it, and they insist on having it done to their daughters.

I don't believe this can ever be a free well-informed choice.

I don't think the niqab is a free choice either.

mexicans theory is ingenious but I don't think it fits the known facts about English attitudes to women. Going by her posting times one, perhaps she is in a "former colony" and so there is some local unhappiness.

I thought the thing about niqab and deserts was just that if you are a settled community, you can keep your women indoors away from other men; but if you are nomadic you don't have a building, so they need to travel in portable houses, as it were. Other cultures have used closed litters to do the same job.

I know like many atheist feminists do that plenty of religious people are not sexist and not wicked (although much bad is done by the institutionalisation of sexism and the like in many religions - probably more harm than good). Indeed Jesus and the Prophet M apparently both tried to say we are all equal. Men of course steal those rules and twist and turn them in a truly wicked way to ensure women are kept down and then lie about what Islam and other religions require by pretending women have to cover up and that women should inherit less than men or that people cannot have sex with whom they choose and the like.

That does not mean I am out to get religious women or even atheist but sexist housewives or whatever. It just means I want to ensure I can lift the scales from the eyes of those who believe things which are objectively wrong and help women assume their equal position including equality in terms of earnings and career on this planet. Covering up has a huge impact on little girls in the UK. It makes it harder for them to do things that their brothers can do and curbs and limits them. It is very destructive and makes them different and apart. It is to be discouraged in my view. I would not however ban it.

Mistress, you keep stating that you make no apology for this or for that. Nobody needs your apology, nobody wants your apology. Your apology or non-apology makes no difference to anyone.

The vitriol that you spout against niqabis and against Muslims in general, the way you hold every muslim woman responsible for the atrocities committed by IS, you really arent there to empower women are you? You are just out to push your own agenda. You quite happily hold every niqabi woman to account for the Swat woman's plight. You have no qualms pushing your own value system onto women who have a different set of values. Your little motto seems to be that you are either with us or against us. On a thread about niqab, you bring in terrorism, as you associate niqab, with muslims and muslims with terrorism. You are not a forward thinking as you might like to believe either. Most of your posts bleat on about 'us' and 'them', 'us' being so enlightened and 'them' being something to scorn and reject and in need of adopting 'our' value system that 'they' may be saved. A very colonial and vile approach I would say. I hope most people would distance them selves from your prejudiced stereotypical values, which you try to pass off as feminism concerned for the plight of the woman in Swat.

Attacking muslim women for what they wear in the West, citing oppression of women in the East and calling that liberal thinking is adding more oppression, this time carried our by you because a woman dared choose what to wear and you dont like it.

Skewers your reading very different things into Mistress posts than I am seeing.

I see no where she is pouring virtirol on muslim women at all.

your adding up 1 and 1 and coming up with a humped back whale that has no bearing to what she is saying.

Dr Taj Haregy himself wants more female intergration I belive he is am Imman and says he wants rid of the niqab and wants women adn men to pray together.

what do you think of him, becaue he makes sense to me?