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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

383 replies

MrsJamin · 07/10/2014 22:04

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

OP posts:
SevenZarkSeven · 08/10/2014 20:37

cheerful yank schools don't teach children that there is no god and most athests wouldn't want to I'm sure.

athiests simply want religious worship and instruction/indoctrination not to happen in state schools.

I suppose some people think that teaching things like evolution are effectively teaching that god doesn't exist as they would say god made everything - is that what you mean?

Beastofburden · 08/10/2014 20:38

I suppose if a school taught the DC that "some ppl believe there is a god" then I personally couldn't object to that. Even though I don't think it's true that god exists, it's definitely true that some ppl think that he does.

But schools tend to be more definite. Your point is, I think, that so do atheists Grin. That's true, and it is certainly logical that both sides ought to qualify what they say with "I could be wrong, but".

My experience is that neither side does that, because both sides are sincere.

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 08/10/2014 20:38

mexican I felt that your post was a lazy attempt to smear posters who were offering a different opinion and had questions by calling us anti Muslim.

You told us we had easy lives and pehaps needed to fill out time.

Very patronising so glad to see you have now read the whole thread.

solosoling that's the problem though isn't it? What is free will in the context of strong religious and strong cultural rules.

No religious person excersise a free will as religion demands obeyance and excersise control.

minkah · 08/10/2014 20:39

Genitals are erogenous zones that we are hard wired to be aroused by. They are close to or are also, organs of excretion, tucked away in public for reasons of hygiene and respect around food and drink, and seat sharing etc.

Faces are what we greet one another with and a huge part of communication and identity.

Saying that wearing underpants is a cultural norm lakin to wearing a face veil is sophistry, nothing more.

Beastofburden · 08/10/2014 20:41

Is there anyone here who can answer my earlier question? Do ppl look at me, clearly a totally virtuous, long-married, past-it frumpy 50 something mother of three, who wears no lipstick, forgets her mascara, and wouldn't wear revealing clothes in public as she has no wish to watch ppl run away screaming..... Would either Muslim men or women look at me not veiled and think secretly that I am likely to be less virtuous than they are? Would they think the same of my pretty 20 year old daughter in her perfectly respectable clothing when she goes off to work in a nursery every day on the bus?

Momagain1 · 08/10/2014 20:42

Yes of course it's personal choice but if the covering is about modesty then why wasn't the man swathed too.

You do see all sorts of extremes like that couple, but the thing is, under whatever level of shoulder to ankle cover, Mrs. droopypants may well have been dressed in equivalent clothing. Perhaps that she is covered in public truly does reflect her choice, perhaps not. But if you pay attention, there are many modestly dressed Muslim men. The thing is, they blend in with all the other men in the UK who never wear shorts and regularly cover their arms with anything from a dress shirt and suit jacket to a hoodie. It is unremarkable. The majority of women i see with various levels of hair and shoulder covering, if their is an adult male with them, he is dressed roughly equivalent modesty-wise, including a cap (like a kippur) in many cases.

When getting up in arms, keep in mind, western women's own ability to dress however we want is pretty recent, and we still have to defend it against slut-shaming. Until 50 years ago, between puberty and widowhood, there were all sorts of dress requirements for 'decent' women, and women might be labelled, shunned, even arrested for exposing various bits under various circumstances, or because of their choice of undergarment. Trouserwearing was illegal, not just daring. In the Stonewall riots in the 1960s, some women in trousers were arrested under a law against women wearing men's clothing (also men arrested for wearing women's clothing).

From the end of the 1800s when public swimming became a thing, it was decades before swimsuits were 'immodest' enough to be practical. The arrest-able limits only gradually lifted from ankle to upper thigh and long sleeves to straps. The original bikini barely exposed two inches of midriff, but was shocking and shameful and something fathers and mothers proclaimed their daughter would not be allowed to wear! And every time the waistline dropped a bit more a new set of parents proclaimed, but now women old enough to have been those proclaiming mothers shave off their pubic hair as strippers used to do, in order to feel properly undressed in almost non-existent bathing suits.

When hats were still a social requirement 40 or 50 years ago. veils weren't uncommon, and being veiled for weddings or funerals wasn't just a fashion statement, some religious people took their meanings seriously. Some still do. The rules for clothing and veiling of widows and other close female family members began to be lifted with The Great War, there were just too many men to mourn is one explanation I have read. The following of these rules varied by social class, but whatever level was expected within your community and church, following it to safeguard your respectability, employability and remarriagability was crucial.

TODAY: Schools, both uniform requiring and not, have requirements for how short girls skirts can be, or short pants if they even allow them. Some schools disallow leggings as pants, but require tights under skirts. How much shoulder can be exposed by a sleeveless top, whether or not midriffs may be exposed at all, and what phrases and pictures on tshirts are acceptable. ETC ETC. I am not sure how long ago in the UK employers and universities imposed dress codes on females employees and students, but I know in the US some did until the 70s, and some few got away with it longer.

Someone asked why niqab wearing women get to wear black eyeliner, the answer is, that developed in the region for different reasons and it became so expected it is almost immodest not to kohl your eyes. But westerners do see it as sexy, because cosmetics were only worn by prostitutes until recent history, though really rich and/or older women could get away with varying amounts through the centuries. My grandfather cautioned his daughters 'a little powder, a little paint, makes a lady what she ain't'. It was a bit of a joke about covering spots or wrinkles, but also referred to not over doing it and looking slutty. Most parents still police their daughters use of cosmetics below a certain age or beyond a certain amount.

solosolong · 08/10/2014 20:45

Skewers interesting link - thanks.

The body I don't think any of us is free of cultural influences, whether we are religious or not. That is why it is so difficult for those of us who have grown up in the UK without strong religious influences to understand why a woman would choose to wear the niqab. I don't think that means that it isn't a valid choice.

Maybe read the link which Skewers posted, I think that explains some of it from a different perspective.

MexicanSpringtime · 08/10/2014 20:46

I felt that your post was a lazy attempt to smear posters who were offering a different opinion and had questions by calling us anti Muslim

I think there was something lazy about my post, Thebodyloveschocolateandwine so you were probably right to call me up on it, but there have been quite a few anti-muslim threads on Mumsnet lately and it is getting to me.

As it is I agree with quite a few of the comments here. My brother is a Muslim and he and his friends are totally against the niqab and all this concern about the way women dress, particularly the hypocrisy of men walking around in states of virtual undress while the wife has to be covered from head to toe.

SevenZarkSeven · 08/10/2014 20:46

Skewers your post talks mainly about men reacting in a violent way if "their" women do not cover in the way they would like them to, and then you blame feminists for this?

I also think that saying that women in the UK who express concern at the state of things in e.g. Saudi or Swat are suffering from white feminist syndrome (whatever that is) is pretty shitty. You are making a lot of assumptions about colour and religion and all sorts of stuff and telling people they should not care or empathise with others, I don't get it. People don't have to care about this stuff. Lots of people, in fact, don't care at all.

StepDoor · 08/10/2014 20:46

Beast, no, never. Muslims are not allowed to judge people based on appearance. A Muslim would be sinful if they looked down on anyone.

There is a saying of the Prophet Muhammad: god does not look at your appearance, rather he looks at your heart and actions.

MistressMia · 08/10/2014 20:48

To those who asked why women wear the niqab, it is because they are following the actions and deeds of the prophets wives. Islamic rules, regulations and practice don't just come from the Quran but also from sayings and ways of the 'prophet' and his companions. So there is a religious mandate for it, just as there is for the less offensive head covering alone.

Not that it matters in the slightest whether there is any religious justification for it at all in terms of whether its acceptable or not. After all religion is just another set of ideas. The KKK also have particular deeply held beliefs (not too dissimilar to Islamic ones : white supremacy versus Islamic supremacy). Are we ok with allowing their members to walk around in their white robes and head cones ?

solosolong · 08/10/2014 20:49

Interesting post Momaagain - my mum was not allowed to wear trousers at university which would have been around 1960.

Penfold007 · 08/10/2014 20:53

I've recently spent time in Dubai and was totally blown away by the fact that niqab wearing ladies recognise each other across a busy street and then also pose for selfies with their veils in place.

I wonder is Muslim mummys have to explain why none Muslim ladies don't wear niqabs when the are out.

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 08/10/2014 20:54

Momagain

I don't think anyone is up in arms here.

They just have different opinions.

westerners do not see kohl as sexy

Er I do as I wear it all the time.

I remember my mother raging at the dress code in my dads office of no trousers for women and that was in Britain in 1976.

Freedoms are hard won.

Feminism is very new really in the west and it's been easier as religions have become less important in western society so traditional patriarchy has been questioned and discarded.

There is absolutely nothing empowering about a woman covering her whole body and face.

If it was empowering stuff men would be doing it too.

SomeLikeItChilliHot · 08/10/2014 20:57

This youtube video may be of interest to some of the above posters, it's not answering the OP's question but does address some of the issues raised on this thread regarding Islam, women inequality and culture, and responds to the bigotry of the interviewers.

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 08/10/2014 20:57

mexican no worries. Thank you for your post. Smile

Beastofburden · 08/10/2014 20:58

step thank you. That is very good to know. Smile

Beastofburden · 08/10/2014 20:59

westerners do not see kohl as sexy

O god now I feel really old. If you were born in the 1960s like me you definitely see kohl as sexy, it was pretty much all we had to work with when we were teens....

FreudiansSlipper · 08/10/2014 21:04

well then why do women find it empowering, it is not empowering to you or do they not really know how they feel and have been brainwashed

empowerment can mean different things to different people. I am an atheist I feel no religious empowerment or that being an atheist empowers me i do not feel particularly strongly that i am an atheist it is just what i am though for some it is their very being like for some their religion is.

I feel empowered that I can vote, some people choose not to as they do not feel this way

fatlazymummy · 08/10/2014 21:06

cheerfulyank I would get irritated if my children's school had told them 'there is a god', why wouldn't I? That's not the purpose of school. Of course they need to be educated about religion, it's difficult to understand certain other subjects (eg history) without knowing about religion.
As an atheist, I never told my children. 'there isn't a god' . I didn't need to do that, because they never believed there was.

MistressMia · 08/10/2014 21:08

what is shocking is the blinkered view you hold of that woman despite having nothing obstructing your vision except a narrow-mindedness and the white feminist saviour complex

I'm no white saviour. I'm of Pakistani background and my fury at you wearing the niqab is that it reinforces the the view that women are responsible for preserving honour and decency in society.

Its great for you, who living here has the choice to cover or uncover, but the poor women who actually have to live under an Islamic theocracy don't have that choice.

By willingly adopting the Niqab you give succour to those who point to you as a wonderful example of womens enlightenment. If 'educated western women' wear it, then it must be right...... What hope does the poor girl in the Swat Valley have to argue against being swathed in yards of fabric in oppressive heat and which hinders her ability to navigate the mountain passes. Clearly the acid in her face is well deserved.

CheerfulYank · 08/10/2014 21:10

FatLazyMummy I was replying to Green grow who said "it's not disrespectful to tell people there isn't a God." :)

FreudiansSlipper · 08/10/2014 21:15

fatlazymummy I am irritated that ds is taught that there is a god at school not because I am an atheist but because I want him to make up his own mind on what he believes and what he feels is right for him. That was taken away from me as my mother is an atheist who sneers at religion and calls those that believe in god foolish, so even i had wanted to believe i would have been made to feel a fool. I do not wish for ds to think this way at all but it seems that many school (even though this was researched before he went there) still bring Christianity beliefs into schooling rather than just teaching it

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 08/10/2014 21:22

beast yep born in the 60s too and love kohl. It was that and strawberry lip gloss! Wink

MistressMia

A very powerful post.

fragolino · 08/10/2014 21:23

I'm no white saviour

Dr Taj is no white saviour either in fact he fought apartheid in South Africa.

He says the veil and the nijab are un necessary in Islam. There is no reason to wear them.