to think Restorative Practice is a steaming pile of horseshit?

[BunnyLebowski]

DD is in Yr 1.

I was waiting for her outside her classroom today. The windows look onto their cloakroom.

I looked through the window and saw DD sitting on the bench changing her shoes. A (much larger) boy in her class (who I have seen act badly and have heard unpleasant things about) was standing over her slightly to the side. He was leaning over her somewhat intimidatingly. DD smiled at him uncertainly. He then pushed his whole body into her and pinched her extremely hard on the upper arm while staring manically at her. DD shrieked and exploded into tears.

I almost broke the window banging it at him. The wee fucker .

I immediately knocked on the door and explained what I'd seen to the teaching assistant.

DD's took them both into a room and then came out and explained their policy of Restorative Practice and asked if I would be willing to sit down with DD, her and the little turd boy.

DD got a halfassed apology and the teacher said that he was standing up for a friend that DD had been bossy to (she can be verbally bossy and we don't tolerate it - it happens very rarely and she's a star pupil). I told the teacher that I refused to accept that physical violence is an acceptable way of standing up for your friends. The boy was unfazed. Why wouldn't he be when there are no consequences for his appalling actions?

We left and came home. I am still raging and plan to ask the the teacher tomorrow whether or not his parents have been informed. I think they should be.

AIBU to think that this softly softly way of dealing with bad behaviour is not doing our kids any favours? Before anyone leaps on me, I'm obviously not saying bring back the cane but the boy should lose some of his privileges or incur some form of punishment for his behaviour?

Disclaimer: DD is my PFB and my celtic blood is up.

AIBU?

'Five year olds do not possess the capability of being emotionally abusive. They're still very me-centric. She was bossy because she wanted something, and that's where the thought process stopped. She wasn't bossy to control him or play mind games with him, even advanced five year olds aren't that sophisticated. Let's stop putting adult concepts on little children.'
You seriously think 5 yr olds cannot be manipulative or abusive? How many 5 yr olds do you know? I work with primary school children , particularly 5 to 9 Yos every day and I am here to tell you that you are wrong big time.
In any case abuse is as perceived by the victim, not by the purpatrator.

I wouldn't bang on a window until it nearly smashed (as a grown adult) in order to scare a "wee fucker" etc etc

I asked what you would do in that situation as you seem to think banging on a window to be such a terrible thing. So, is there any slight possibility of answering the actual question of what would you do, if you saw your child being pinched and leant on, whilst you were watching through a window?

Rather than asking if I am for real, just answer the Q.

"I almost broke the window banging it at him. "

There's a word for this... oh yes, that's it - hyperbole.

Yesterday I saw a 'mum' friend in the playground absolutely raging because her Yr6 son had been bitten on the arm by a Yr4 boy.

Apparently RJ was undertaken and mum wasn't even told - she found out because when she held onto her sons arm her yelped. The Yr4 boy was told to apologise and when asked why he had done it said "Because X tried to shut the gate" (playground gate separating the KS1s from KS2s - teacher told him to)

Meanwhile Yr4 boy had walked past Yr6 boy and said "see I'm NOT sorry" and promptly tripped up one of his classmates in front of mum.

Mum wants to know what the school was doing about "this little shit" (yes, she said it) and the teacher said "if you continue to use language like that you will be asked to avoid the playground" and was told that Yr4 boy was "new and trying to find his place in the pack" "Yr6 boy should make allowances for someone much younger than himself"

Meanwhile her son has a scabbed and bruised arm, another child has skinned knees and both mum and children have no confidence in the teacher.

In her ranting yesterday she said that if her son has any more issues with this kid she is going to go straight to the parents, bypassing the school completely because she doesn't trust the school any more.

So for the sake of a 'proper' punishment (Yr4 could have missed a break/golden time/had detention etc) a parents relationship with the school is damaged. Yep, I think it's horseshit too.

Hope DD has a better day today Bunny.

There's a word for this... oh yes, that's it - hyperbole.

Yeah. And you know all novels are also not a true documentation of the author's life?

Eve, regardless of the other issues of the school addressing what occurred, referring to another person's child in the playground as "this little shit" is not on, and she deserved be warned about that. Address the situation and the behaviour, don't call children names.

Midnite RTFT

I didn't refer to the child as a 'little shit' in the playground. I did it on here , in anger, anonymously.

No amount of bleating from you and your cronies on here is going to make that a worse crime than what this child has done to my DD.

And I didn't get a warning about it . The school staff have been nothing but supportive given that DD is the innocent victim in this whole debacle.

If reading the thread is too hard for you then don't bother commenting eh.

I was just about to post the same thing Midnite.

To answer your opening question OP, restorative Practice isn't horse shit, it's a fantastic way to get to the bottom of things BUT it should be followed up by appropriate punishments. For the school to exclude this child before punishing him in other ways, is awful. I think they've handled the whole thing badly.

Bunny, Midnite isn't referring to you, she's referring to the woman EveDallas is posting about, in her own school.

Rather nasty though to cause someone of "bleating" and of having "cronies on this thread".

Maybe you'd like to apologise to Midnite

Why don't you RTFT Bunny? I was referring to EveDallasRetd's post above mine. Perhaps you should be the one to consider thinking before 'bleating' in future.

cause accuse

I've never had cronies before. It would be pretty cool. We could go around like a posse, with our red spray cans, checking for spelling mistakes in graffiti.

Bunny,

I think Midnights post was aimed at me, my friend called the boy that hurt her son 'a little shit' and said it in front of the teacher (must make it clear that neither boy heard her say it, only mum and teacher).

I get that she shouldn't have said it, but she was angry, had just (like 10 mins previously) saw the damage to her sons arm, and had just (5 mins later) saw the child purposely trip up and hurt a young girl.

The fact that the teacher immediately jumped on that, rather than addressing her sons injury etc further inflamed the situation and it's rather ironic that mum could be excluded from the playground for using a minor swear word to another adult, but a child isn't excluded for causing physical harm. I think the teacher could have handled the whole sorry saga much better.

But it isn't ironic that the mum was nearly excluded for the playground.

What the heck do you expect the teacher to do when a parent starts using language like that in a SCHOOL! The teacher has to deal with that issue there and then, hence her comment to the parent. What happens to the children is another thing entirely.

Eve: What an awful story. Biting is something you associate with toddlers, not eight or nine year olds. How dispiriting that the teacher thinks the child is "finding his place in the pack", whatever that means. If I were the mum in question I'd be tempted to withdraw my child from the school. Whatever else we expect of schools, the very minimum (in my view) that you should be able to expect is that the school protects your child from physical harm.

EveDallasRetd (just so everyone is clear who I am addressing!) have a look at it from the teacher's point of view. A parent or other child overhears the teacher involved in a conversation where a child is called 'a little shit'. The school grapevine being what it is, that turns in to the teacher calling the child 'a little shit' and they're hauled in to the head to explain their behaviour. Or a parent overhears, jumps to a wild conclusion that it is their child being spoken about ("she said the child had hair, my child has hair, she's talking about my child!") and it's on for young and old in the middle of the playground. You have to nip that sort of thing in the bud, no matter how upset a parent may be, it is not productive, is not going to solve anything, and can lead to further problems for all concerned.

Bakeoff, I think the teacher could have said "I'm sorry, in understand that you are very upset, but please don't swear in the playground. As for Yr4 boy we are going to X,Y,Z" not immediately jump on an obviously upset and angry parent.

Hack, yes, that was my reaction. I could understand and accept it if we were talking nursery or YrR, or if the child had some form of SNs (although I would still expect a punishment to be given), but not a child of that age.

I think that schools often have systems in place for dealing with some of the more difficult kids but the point is that for the childs sake , these are confidential and so in some ways you are left having to trust the school. As I have previously said, we have had some very difficult kids in our little school and it has caused no end of problems for the parents of the kids that have ended up getting hurt whilst the children concerned 'settle down' but they have all settled down with time and firm boundaries. School have had meetings with concerned parents and listened to them and tried to explain the schools strategy without giving away confidential info but it is hard. If school were able to say,for example, "look, this poor kid has been removed from a very violent family and is in foster care and was regularly watching his mum get beaten up " etc etc you might be prepared to cut him some slack.Or you might just think...well he should be in a special school for behavioural problems. It is a dilemma. Out of interest, one of my best friends daughters was regularly being picked on by one of our most difficult kids. She had been pinched,scratched,things thrown at her,held by her throat against a toilet door. My friend was obviously very concerned and had lots of meetings with school but her advice to her daughter was to be kind and caring to this girl and try and be a good friend to her as she needs some good friends because she is very sad. This girl has been invited to all of my friends daughters birthday parties and slowly, over 3 years or so, her behaviour has improved to the extent that she is a house captain this year. I know that there is some sacrifice involved in that and I know that 'every child matters'but I also know that some children have unbelievably crappy home lives and a good supportive school gives them half a chance of making something of their lives.
I am not judging your particular situation OP,it has obviously been very traumatic for you all, but labelling a 5 year old is not helpful. The best you could do for your child is teach her some coping strategys,ensure she understands that some kids are not as loved and blessed as her in life and teach her to be kind to others, even when they are not kind to her. If evryone was like that we would live in a better world. Hope your daughter is okay OP.

"The fact that the teacher immediately jumped on that, rather than addressing her sons injury etc further inflamed the situation and it's rather ironic that mum could be excluded from the playground for using a minor swear word to another adult, but a child isn't excluded for causing physical harm. I think the teacher could have handled the whole sorry saga much better."

So lets get this right. The teacher has to baby the mother as well as the children.

I think the teacher was completely right. She has no power to discipline a parent other than excluding them from the grounds of the school. It is only fair that she warns the parent first. People expect children to behave like children and adults to behave like adults. Why is its a problem society having higher expectations of adults than children?

Biting in juniors is totally unacceptable, but two wrongs don't make a right. The school has a duty of in loco parentis to both children. They have a duty towards the biter and the bitee to keep both chidren safe. They also have bigger range of sanctions for the biter.

Funky - wtf you on about?

My point is that it's very unlikely that the OP actually nearly broke the window, she was exaggerating for effect. So all the people banging on (ha!) about her "nearly smashing a window" are taking her comment faaaarrr too literally instead of in the spirit in which it was no doubt intended.

So lets get this right. The teacher has to baby the mother as well as the children

No. The teacher needs to have the common sense to say something simple like "I understand you are upset but please don't swear in the playground" and then talk to the parent about the injury her son has received, the fact that RJ obviously didn't work and what will happen next in light of that fact, rather than jump straight in with "If you continue to use language like that you will be asked to avoid the playground and instead collect X from the Reception" which did nothing but inflame the situation and make an angry and upset parent angrier and more upset.

HTH

I really feel for teachers. They are expected to help grown adults manage their feelings as well as look after five year olds. Calling a child "a little shit" in front of the offending child is a safeguarding issue.

A teacher should not have to tell an adult not to swear or control their emotions. That was your mother's job.

Sounds as though in Eve's example the teacher should have avoided consequences and used some of her RJ training when dealing with the parent! Whatever discipline method the school chose, the injury should have been reported to the parent.

I think clear consequences and restorative practice/justice both have their place and can be used inappropriately and badly. Some children have more complicated difficulties and their problems are not going to be solved quickly by any technique. This may have everything or nothing to do with the parents, but it is still fundamentally the school's responsibility to protect all children in their care and provide all children with a suitable education.

They don't have any responsibility to explain to other parents how they are disciplining individual children - just to make sure children are safe in school.