to think Restorative Practice is a steaming pile of horseshit?

[BunnyLebowski]

DD is in Yr 1.

I was waiting for her outside her classroom today. The windows look onto their cloakroom.

I looked through the window and saw DD sitting on the bench changing her shoes. A (much larger) boy in her class (who I have seen act badly and have heard unpleasant things about) was standing over her slightly to the side. He was leaning over her somewhat intimidatingly. DD smiled at him uncertainly. He then pushed his whole body into her and pinched her extremely hard on the upper arm while staring manically at her. DD shrieked and exploded into tears.

I almost broke the window banging it at him. The wee fucker .

I immediately knocked on the door and explained what I'd seen to the teaching assistant.

DD's took them both into a room and then came out and explained their policy of Restorative Practice and asked if I would be willing to sit down with DD, her and the little turd boy.

DD got a halfassed apology and the teacher said that he was standing up for a friend that DD had been bossy to (she can be verbally bossy and we don't tolerate it - it happens very rarely and she's a star pupil). I told the teacher that I refused to accept that physical violence is an acceptable way of standing up for your friends. The boy was unfazed. Why wouldn't he be when there are no consequences for his appalling actions?

We left and came home. I am still raging and plan to ask the the teacher tomorrow whether or not his parents have been informed. I think they should be.

AIBU to think that this softly softly way of dealing with bad behaviour is not doing our kids any favours? Before anyone leaps on me, I'm obviously not saying bring back the cane but the boy should lose some of his privileges or incur some form of punishment for his behaviour?

Disclaimer: DD is my PFB and my celtic blood is up.

AIBU?

Of course it's horseshit. I would be absolutely incandescent if it were my DD.
I appreciate that some kids have awful home lives and not a great start in life. I do not think that other kids should be used as punch bags while they get to tall through their feelings.
Kids sometimes need to be TOLD that inappropriate behaviour is just that. Inappropriate and wrong. OP was perfectly justified in her anger and, frankly, quite restrained considering she was venting on an anonymous forum. That's what it's for. If we all have to start being PC and namby-pamby on here then it's no longer the place for me. Just call a spade a spade. The little shit IS a bully and needs taking in hand.
OP I hope your DD isn't too worried about school today

OP, I am 100% with you on this, and I feel nothing but contempt for people who try to make excuses about the poor little five year old boy who is frightened by nasty adults banging on the window and the rest of it.

Pinching someone isn't a bit of playful rough and tumble. It's malicious. Pinching really hurts. Neither is throwing a shoe at another child in the same category as being a bit bossy. It's vicious. (It may well be that this boy has problems at home and has learnt his aggression his parents, but that doesn't absolve the school from having to protect your DD.)

Why should a blameless five-year old child have to put up with this? Those of you who are attacking the OP, how would you feel if you went into work and one of your colleagues pinched you? And the next day threw a shoe at you? Would you accept an apology and move on? And if you as an adult wouldn't put up with this, why in the name of fuck should a five-year old girl?

Most five year olds occassionally behave in unacceptable ways when they are tired and struggle to manage their feelings. Children in this age group often say or do unpleasent things on impluse. I have yet to meet the perfect five year old who has a perfect shiny halo.

"Why should a blameless five-year old child have to put up with this? Those of you who are attacking the OP, how would you feel if you went into work and one of your colleagues pinched you? And the next day threw a shoe at you? Would you accept an apology and move on? And if you as an adult wouldn't put up with this, why in the name of fuck should a five-year old girl?"

I don't expect work collegues to behave like five year olds. My work collegues are above the criminal age of responsiblity. The law does differentiate between grown adults who pinch and throw shoes and over tired five year olds. I am sure that my work collegues behaved in horrid ways towards sibblings/ classmates at the age of five. Thankfully most adults have had time to grow up and learn what is socially acceptable.

I am sceptical that the OP child is completely blameless. A good school would want to know what triggered the boy to pinch or throw the shoes.
The school is trying to get to the bottom of what happened. The school would be unfair if they took what one child (or even a mother) said as gospel as many five year olds lie.

I expect that these posters who want severe punishments for the five year old boy would want allowances made if their precious child did anything unacceptable.

LaQueenOnHerHolibobs
The OP think the boy deserves a toe stuck up his arse and that banging on the window at a five year old child is acceptable.

How do you know that the boy was not punished by his parents or the school? The school would divulge details of sanctions or an individual education plan for the boy to the OP because they have a duty of confidentiality.

"Gentle repetition of the message until it sinks in..."

At the age of five repetition of the message and being shown how to resolve differences is more effective than arbitary sanctions. Delayed punishments really don't work well at this age. Most year one classes have lots of child initated learning every afternoon instead of golden time.

Let the teachers do their job. It is what they have been trained to do.

Some of the responses on this thread show why we now have such badly behaved children in this country now!

Had either of my 2 boys behaved like the child in the OP DH and I would have come down on them like a tonne of bricks! As for Bunny being in the wrong for banging on the window, words fail me! If that scared the child, then good, it bloody well should have.

I don't see why any child should have to put up with being hit, kicked, punched, pinched, bitten etc whilst bully is repeatedly told in a gentle way that they don't do that until it sinks in! It is a load of horseshit and I'm glad my children are too old for all this now!

I haven't read the whole thread but I happen to fully support Bunny's feelings and actions.

I was her daughter all the way through school and "restorative practice" as it is now called is utterly ineffectual with kids like this bully. I was beaten, kicked, pinched, hair ripped out daily and the teachers did nothing. this went on from the age of 8 through to 14. the same kids had been violent all through infant school and been allowed to get away with it. they were then and still are little fuckers and I don't doubt for a second that their kids are just as bad.

there is a time and place for discussion regarding the motivation of an verbal attack or a simple falling out but it should never be used in cases of violence. Mediation as it is called between adults is never permitted where incidentsnof domestic violence has occurred so why the hell should we put kids in that position??!!

"Sooooo, other children have to just endure the pinches, the pushes, being hit by thrown shoesshoes over the next few days...weeks...until said message finally sinks in?"

Other children are expected to endure the OP's DD being "a bit bossy" until the message sinks in. Surely we're not saying it can't possibly be bullying, or serious, unless it involves physical harm?

They're five. The OP is doing the right thing in keeping the teacher aware of what's happened. But all this personal anger towards a five year old?

Not at all skylark but there is a massive difference between a forthright chikd being a bit bossy and a child being physically harmed!

if your boss was verbally rude with you for doing something wrong at work would you expect them to be treated the same as if they punched you?

YABU of course restorative justice is the way to go. Fo far too long, abuse has been kept under the radar by the more mentally agile children to the detriment of those that lash out or lose it.

RJ is the only way that staff can really get to the bottom of what is happening, and is certainly going to reduce incidents because it's just so embarrassing to be reminded about how crap your behaviour has been in front of someone else.

Wheresthelight, emotional abuse is a form of domestic violence. Controlling behaviour can be absolutely devastating and if this girl is doing this to this lad's friend that needs to be dealt with as much as the physical intimidation.

OP did anything happen about the boy being bullied by your dd?

if you bother to read the thread the op has already said the "bossy" incident had been dealt with already but her dd again apologised to the friend and they hugged so yes ot had been dealt with.

"Really if I caught my own DDs deliberately pinching another child, or aggressively throwing shoes at another child...trust me I would have done a damn sight more than bang on the window at them, and raised a censurious eyebrow.

I would have been furious with them, and they would have been damned sure of that. I simply wouldn't tolerate it. It would have been Death State, Death Voice. immediate repercussions."

You can discipline your own child, but banging on the window and scaring other children is a different matter. I imagine that other five year olds in the room might have been terrified.

Honestly some of the responses on this thread are nuts. The children are five years old. They don't yet have a developed concept of right or wrong. They do not have adult reasoning powers or a sense of time. RJ is the fairest most effective tool teachers have.

OP did anything happen about the boy being bullied by your dd?

ODFOD

Honestly. No wonder we have a problem with behaviour in schools with the pathetic excuses for discipline as seen in this thread.

Sorry, if someone does something to one of my children, I am angry - furious - raging and, possibly, a little unhinged.

So, what I do is go home, write long and furious e-mails and letters, delete them (or vent on here), rant at DH, go for a stamping angry walk.

And then, calmly, and reasonably, go and deal with the situation. That is what the OP has done. Her banging on the window was to alert him of her presence and to stop him. It is no different from dragging a child back from the road by their arm: not something you would normally do but, in an emergency, where someone might get hurt, you do something urgent, sudden and often noisy.

I think the problem lies with the teacher. I don't know much about Restorative Practice - although I am a teacher - but I do know that clear sanctions, carefully explained and rigidly enforced can go a long way to improving behaviour. If he has apologised, (through RJ or some other means) he then needs to have the punishment explained and then clear sanctions if it happens again (ie, how the punishments will escalate).

Equally, however, if he manages to turn his behaviour around (and many do) he should be praised and encouraged because that is a good thing too. Those children who have tough home lives often have few boundaries and children actually respond very well to clear boundaries - it makes them feel relieved that someone is in charge.

There doesn't seem to be much of anyone being in charge here and that is the issue really, not the system.

"if your boss was verbally rude with you for doing something wrong at work would you expect them to be treated the same as if they punched you?"

Who cares? They're five. We don't treat five year olds as if they were adults for any other purpose - why would we do so when disciplining them?

RJ is the fairest most effective tool teachers have.

Except when it doesn't work...and there are enough people on this thread alone saying that it didn't work with the children who hurt them.

How is it right that a child can physically hurt another child twice in 2 days and the exact same method and consequence (although having to apologise isn't actually a consequence in my opinion) is used? The should have been an immediate consequence first then restorative practice used to ensure an apology and the reiteration of a no violence message. Clearly restorative practice didn't wort the first time!

Sending a message that an apology means you're not punished for hitting/throwing/pinching etc is the wrong message to send.

"Who cares? They're five. We don't treat five year olds as if they were adults for any other purpose - why would we do so when disciplining them?"

To use Restorative Practice is to assume that the people involved have a moral compass, can think through relatively complex consequences and understand escalating sanctions.

Some five year olds can't. They need immediate and punitive sanctions, otherwise they will simply do it again. Just as has happened with the OP's daughter.

You can't have it both ways. You either treat them as if they understand and empathise with Restorative Practice - or, if they cannot, you tell them how to behave and use sanctions / punishment to enforce.

This total and utter steaming pile of bollocks is exactly why kids these days have no boundaries. One size does not fit all.

why would we do so when disciplining them?

Or not disciplining them, as the case appears to be here...

I can see how restorative justice can work in some situations. My dd had a problem when a group of her classmates got all cliquey and were horrible to her in Y2. The teacher sat the group down and sorted it out. All good. No repetition. Everyone happy.

But where children have a pattern of violent behaviour then no. If they can't control impulses at 5 then they aren't going to think it through and decide not to do it. Or they can control impulses but chose to do it anyway.
Schools need to be very clear about acceptable behaviour from day 1. Children need clear guidance not woolly stuff.

I'm baffled that people think 5 year olds don't know the difference between right and wrong! Of course most do otherwise it would be carnage in all classrooms across the country!

Are these same people who say 'aww they're 5! They're only babies!"

If they don't know the difference between right and wrong they need it teaching in a clear cut way, imo, not in a fluffy way so they can keep doing as they please until they get the message that they must conform to the rules like everyone else.