To ask all Scottish MNrs to work together 2

[siiiiiiiiigh]

Sorry, filled the last thread with this, thought I'd better be part of Team Scottish MN and work together for those of us on the old thread...

Here's Armando's thoughts. I vote him in for everything.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/21/scottish-referendum-massive-voter-turnout-means-politics-changed-for-ever

I don't really want to "work together" with people to make Devo Max or Scotland or whatever work. That's the job of the government - I pay taxes - they run the country. I don't expect to pay taxes and to have to work out the running of the country as well.

Wow. Just, wow.

Chelsy - we're the same. We're giving it a couple of years until DD finishes High School and we'll wait and see what happens post election and post the implementation of tax raising powers. If things haven't settled down then we're off - neither of us can bear the thought of living in a small country with constant in-fighting.

Another me me me post by Chelsy, how surprising!

AS has to accept that he lost. The people of Scotland chose unity over division, and to threaten to overrule that is utterly contemptible.

The problem is, he lost this time. There is as massive, not majority, but massive appetite for independence. That's not just going to go away because of the No vote. Thankfully, we live in a democracy, and people can express and work towards their beliefs. If in the next Scottish elections pro-indy parties are in majority, I would expect there would be calls for another referendum. Equally, if the next Scottish elections_produce a majority of Labour/LibDems then there wouldn't be, but people would still be perfectly entitled to keep working towards it.

People seem to keep suggesting a "neverendum" is somehow wrong or undemocratic. Of course its not, it only happens because a significant chink of the population wants it - that's democracy.

Yes, wow, just wow Itsallgoingtobefine. I want to get up in the morning, go to work, go home and maybe do a hobby in the evening. I don't want to join some union, or whatever just to live my life.

I'm not Scottish - I have one Scottish grandparent who is actually from Shetland. Scotland is a tiny country of only 5 million people - there are many other countries out there to live in too. I know that some people don't actually believe this, but its true. I've lived in The Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and Germany previously and I love the excitement of moving around and staying in different countries.

Unimaginable to some, I know.

Well itsall and chelsy
Both sides have extreme views to be sure, many of them on the other Yes thread, some on here, to which they are entitled, even though I don't agree with them. There hasn't been much appetite for 'working together' from Yes, that's up to them.
You probably have a point, Chelsy, we are probably just bashing our gums here on mumsnet. Politics will move on, decisions will be made with or without us. I just enjoy the discussion.

I know McFox, if you ever did get an independent Scotland, you should probably jail subversive people like me. I mean forget the criminals, jail the taxpayers, just because they don't have roots in Scotland or want to live there for the rest of their lives!

Chelsy you've lost me I think. What point are you trying to make - that we shouldn't bother with any of this because Scotland is shite anyway? There are plenty people I'm sure on this thread (me included) who have lived in other countries. I too enjoy change and different cultures etc. Not mutually exclusive with loving your home country.

Chelsy - to be fair, it's not about having roots in Scotland or anything like that.

It's that for a lot of people a yes vote was about getting a say in how to run the country (of course there were other reasons people voted yes, just like people voted no for many different reasons) so the attitude of, well I'm not interested and just want to leave it to politicians is a bit alien.

ONYWYE

So - what else would we all like? (apart from everyone agreeing, Wee Eck never speaking in public again, and everyone moving to a different country cos Scotland is terrible)

At this point in the discussion I would personally like a strong coffee and a rowie TBH.

Actually, these negative comment about someone daring to not want to live in Scotland really get my goat.

You know what the problem really is? I feel alienated. This culture of infighting, and class war, and divisiveness, and being judged for being some kind of awful selfish person for simply wanting to go out to work, pay taxes and live a peaceful life is utterly alien to me. Its not a culture I identify with. Its becoming a very specific trait of Scotland in fact, and you must be very insular and untravelled indeed if you cannot see it.

Its this Scottish nationalist thing again, isn't it? ("nationalist" with a small "N"). If you don't agree that Scotland is the centre of the earth, a Europia unborn, you must be bad, mad, deceived or evil. Meanwhile, I hope we can sell up and get out safely. So sick of it and all the uncertainty. Plus I think both of us will get better job opportunities which are simply not available to us in a country of only 5 million.

Politics will move on, decisions will be made with or without us

Hopefully with though. I think everyone agrees that the political involvement and awareness generated with this campaign is a a good thing. Thousands of people are joining political parties, thousands more are getting involved in grassroots groups.

"Actually, these negative comment about someone daring to not want to live in Scotland really get my goat."

No-one commented on that, it was leaving it up to the government that was commented on.

yes, the levels of engagement are very cool! Loving it. So many interesting discussions, blogs, articles.

I thought the point of the independence referendum was to trust the people in Scotland to make decisions about the future of Scotland. We made a decision and it has not even been respected for a week. Apparently we're too old, too greedy and too stupid to know what we voted for

Either we Scot's are capable of making our own mind up about what's best for us. In which case, we have, by a 55% majority. If we were incapable last week, because we are too old or greedy or stupid or self-centred or whatever, what difference would any future vote make? Either we are capable or we aren't. It is high time that people ACCEPTED the results their country made

Can we keep building on these to make an entire speech?

secret it's good to see you are feeling a bit better about things now :)

Amazing Chelsy, that's some extrapolation. I point out that every post you write simply drips with self interest and you not only confirm that, but add a big dose of paranoia too. Might I suggest that spend more time listening to what people are actually saying? It might go some way to helping you get those brilliant jobs in other countries of which you speak.

Either we are capable or we aren't. It is high time that people ACCEPTED the results their country made

But thats like saying that after the next GE, there is no point in having another GE...

Hi Chipping, sorry did I talk to you before in my emotional state? Don't remember your name (wasn't even drunk either!)

I think a referendum is very different to a general election though - the scale and significance is totally different. As is the level of permanence. Once there is a yes it's not like the no voters will be able to demand to be let back in. Whilst we were given permission to hold the referendum the vote itself was unilateral. Any vote to create a new union wouldn't be.

Happy but surely we can try and move the discussion on without waiting for EVERYONE to agree? I mean you must know that will never happen.

happy, Ignore the chips - what would you want to happen now?

Secret & Behoove, I admire your approach, I see the sanity in it. But I can’t. I want to discuss the future, but I can while there is still such a high proportion of people (just one example) blaming older no-voters for being too old/thick or scared. I don’t need EVERYONE to agree. But for me personally, I can’t discuss the future when SO MANY are still hung up on debunking the democratic process where the no-voters won by a clear 10% majority. For me personally when that dies down, then and only then, will I feel able to move forward and discuss the future.

That doesn’t mean however that I am not enjoying sitting (fairly quietly) on the sidelines taking in what the rest of you all have to offer.

But thats like saying that after the next GE, there is no point in having another GE...

It's not remotely like that. A YES vote was a YES forever. An independent Scotland forever. General elections and the governments they bring out, can be flushed down the pan a few short years later.

That's cool Happy - on Friday morning when people were telling me 'this is the result - the Scottish people have spoken - Move on!' (or words to that effect) I was all 'NO NEVER NEVER NEVERRRRRRR! FUCK EVERYTHING! YER ALL BASSTARRRDDS'

You wouldn't have wanted me anywhere near this thread. My god. Luckily I stayed off FB. My twitter account on the other hand...

You know what the problem really is? I feel alienated. This culture of infighting, and class war, and divisiveness, and being judged for being some kind of awful selfish person for simply wanting to go out to work, pay taxes and live a peaceful life is utterly alien to me. Its not a culture I identify with. Its becoming a very specific trait of Scotland in fact, and you must be very insular and untravelled indeed if you cannot see it.

Its this Scottish nationalist thing again, isn't it? ("nationalist" with a small "N"). If you don't agree that Scotland is the centre of the earth, a Europia unborn, you must be bad, mad, deceived or evil.

Chelsy, Although I don't think this thread is necessarily the best place for this particular discussion. I agree with you. If people asked me what the thing I like most about Scotland and the Scottish is, I say their sense of humour and their ability to laugh at their selves. If they asked me what I dislike most about Scotland and the Scottish, it's that ^^ insular stuff you mention above. It's very off-putting and narrow minded.

Tommy Sheridan for fuck's sake. Why is anyone even listening to this lying arse?

Despite being a Yes voter, I agree. He's a despicable self-serving misogynist whose opinion means nothing to me. It's ok though - I won't have to vote for him and he's merely repeating what other people are already saying - he doesn't have the monopoly on the idea.

Scotland is a tiny country of only 5 million people - there are many other countries out there to live in too. I know that some people don't actually believe this, but its true. I've lived in The Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and Germany previously and I love the excitement of moving around and staying in different countries

Unimaginable to some, I know

Why would you think all Scots are parochial eejits who can't cross a border? I've lived in Europe too, and in England for many years. Many of my peers have moved around their whole lives.

You don't seem to get it yet. My father was born in England, many of my ancestors are Irish. It doesn't matter - this pro-independence movement was not born out of hatred for our neighbours or out of some Bravehearty notion of the bit of land where we happen to live, or fear of moving elsewhere. I am not one for flag-waving, though each to her own.

The reason I voted for independence is that it would have given us more control over the people who make decisions about our lives. I hoped that it would provoke a similar movement throughout the UK. That hope will never leave me.