To ask all Scottish MNrs to work together 2

[siiiiiiiiigh]

Sorry, filled the last thread with this, thought I'd better be part of Team Scottish MN and work together for those of us on the old thread...

Here's Armando's thoughts. I vote him in for everything.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/21/scottish-referendum-massive-voter-turnout-means-politics-changed-for-ever

I have seen an analysis (can't remember where - sorry) that says that, of the 10% who were undecided in the last days of the campaign

I said upthread that I don't believe these polls are accurate due to people's varying levels of self-awareness and all the other aspects involved. But I'm not really concerned about whether the vote was yes or no, contrary to popular opinion I HAVE moved on, I'm concerned about what the future holds for 85% of the UK who didn't vote.

Timeline promised by Brown:

That was always going to be a possible outcome of the Scottish referendum Daughter - in fact, given the results of the polls it was probably a more likely outcome. You seem surprised.

I haven't noticed much No voter back-patting, although I haven't been on here much. I think we've been pretty restrained, much more so than I think Yes voters would have been if they'd won, and very much aware that a lot of people are upset they didn't get the result they wanted.

But I am getting fed up of people shouting for another vote straight away, and claiming that I have been tricked and lied to. I made my choice. Others made theirs. We all made them for our own reasons - some straightforward, some complex. We have been through a very intensive, emotional, and tiring process. We need to come to terms with it, and move on with the situation we have now. To me, that means working for the best deal for all areas of the UK, and getting on with running all areas of the UK.

This will probably be my only post in this thread as I don't want to argue about the result, but would like to make a post in response to the OP (or topic of the thread).

DP and I are increasing our donations to our local food bank and helping out as much as possible. I think that's something all of us can do to help - regardless of how we voted.
I know awareness of food banks is high, but volunteers from one near us were saying they still have times when they have nothing to offer people. For anyone in Glasgow, there is a big collection in George Square on Saturday from 12pm where you can take one item or a few things which will be picked up and spread equally amongst various food banks in Glasgow.

The cuts to our funding, plus the austerity cuts and focus on increased spending on nuclear weapons is going to hit the poorest people in the UK hard. You don't need to donate just food either - Items like baby wipes, dummies, toiletries and even pet food are appreciated.

Again I know everyone will be aware of food banks but after hearing the lady saying how low donations were at times, I thought it would help to keep it fresh in people's minds. :)

Certainly as a No voter I cringed when Cameron and Milliband opened their mouths towards the end of the campaign.

As an impartial(ish) observer it reeked of desperation and lack of integrity - they were not needed or wanted (as No voters keep saying).

OOAOML - I agree entirely about your points about UK devolution changes. There needs to be a proper plan and it needs to be done over years, not months.

DaughterDilemma - I can understand your feelings and your rationale behind them. I think that either way, whatever the result had been, the 85% of the UK who didn't get a say in the Independence referendum, would have been affected by the result.

I think there would have been negative effects on the rest of the UK if Scotland had voted Yes - we saw the pound falling against other world currencies in the run-up to the vote, and I think a Yes vote, and the uncertainty that would have caused, would have had knock-on effects on the rest of the UK economy.

I know the referendum had to happen, but looking at the damage it has causes, on personal levels, locally, nationally etc etc, I wish it hadn't happened.

I wonder if the 'vow' made as much difference to voters intentions as the leaked 'NHS Cuts' document.

If that 85% had been allowed to vote we would still be having the same argument. All you wanted was independence as the only goal. Or so the campaign literature I saw stated.

As for Wings of Scotland as a reliable reference source? Groan.

These are just powers that were going to happen anyway. They have just advanced the timetable and tweaked it all further. Big deal if it takes longer. That's just what happens in life with hugely complicated projects.

Conversely if they hadn't offered anything all these Yes people and politicians would have found something else to bitch about, like them not offering anything in the first place.

This argument is getting dull. Offer something new to add to your points and then it might be more believable. Until then it's just the same old and should be left well alone as the referendum is done. You can't whip up hysteria with disgruntled No voters over some bullshit Vow because none of us cared about it in the first place.

I haven't noticed much No voter back-patting, although I haven't been on here much. I think we've been pretty restrained, much more so than I think Yes voters would have been if they'd won, and very much aware that a lot of people are upset they didn't get the result they wanted.

But I am getting fed up of people shouting for another vote straight away, and claiming that I have been tricked and lied to. I made my choice. Others made theirs. We all made them for our own reasons - some straightforward, some complex. We have been through a very intensive, emotional, and tiring process. We need to come to terms with it, and move on with the situation we have now. To me, that means working for the best deal for all areas of the UK, and getting on with running all areas of the UK.

I couldn't agree more, OOAOML. I can empathise with the huge disappointment of the Yes voters - they came so close to realising this huge dream that they have held for so long - and that is why I have been careful not to crow about the result, and why I appreciate that a lot of the furore that is going on now, with calls for Scotland to seek independence without another referendum, or to have another one in 2020 etc etc, are part of the grieving process. But it is making me very uncomfortable indeed. During the campaign Yes voters said that, whatever the result, Scotland should come together and move forward - something they are struggling to do, in the wake of a No vote. Maybe they were counting on it being the Better Together supporters who were going to have to suck it up and move on?

It is starting to look to me as if the SNP did not have a plan B for what would happen if they didn't win the vote.

It's wrong to tell people they have no right to find justice in another vote. I understand that it has been exhausting but the integrity of the UK is at stake and that is something worth taking another deep breath for.

It really is that serious. Hopefully there are enough decent politicians in Westminster who can see us thought his big entangled mess and develop a sensible political and fiscal system that works fairly but boy do I wish we didn't have to go through all this, it's a waste of energy if nothing else - and makes me completely understand why most people didn't want to vote Yes on those grounds alone.

A quick question for those on this thread, how would you feel about full fiscal autonomy for Scotland? As a Yes voter I'd be happy with that, as would many others. If this was given it really would kill off any ideas of independence, probably for ever.

numanoid that's a great thing to do :)

I don't know what you mean by "find justice"?

I think to still work as part of the UK there still needs to be a degree of "sharing". I think I read somewhere that even those countries which are pretty federalised still need to have about 15% of income pooled for stability.

With your last line, you are beginning to see the light Daughter!

Surely what Nicola Sturgeon looks like is not the point at all.

www.scotsman.com/news/george-kerevan-uk-economy-is-a-ticking-time-bomb-1-3550780

Another referendum would do even more damage to Scotland and the UK - how is that 'just'?

To my way of thinking, justice is accepting the view of the majority of those who voted - just as I would be accepting it, and finding a way to live with it (by moving back to England) if the vote had gone the other way.

Justice is not having one referendum after another, until you get the result you want and then stopping.

If the vote had gone the other way last Thursday, and it was the Better Together campaigners who were saying we should vote in a Holyrood parliament that would be in favour of staying in the UK, and should ignore the referendum result, and just stay in the UK, or that we should have yet more referenda, until we got a majority vote to stay in the UK, then the Yes campaign would be incandescent with fury, I am sure. But it is fine for them to denigrate the vote of those of us who did vote to stay in the UK, and threaten to ignore it.

If things don't settle down in the next year or so, dh and I will be looking at moving south of the border again. I am already sick of my carefully thought-out, intelligent, positive decision to vote No being hated, criticised and denigrated.

the 85% of the UK who didn't get a say in the Independence referendum, would have been affected by the result.

I agree but I don't think it would have been bad in the long term, and a lot of people thought the same. The way I saw it (note past tense) is that Scotland would have been able to develop its potential without being tied down by the mistakes and burdens of Westminster and Whitehall.

The Markets rarely like any kind of change and rarely look further than the next quarter in terms of effects of change so of course they dropped in the run-up to the vote. Business thrives on opportunities. The opportunities to take advantage of the inevitable gaps and loopholes, giveaways and outsourcing that will be involved in UK devolution is more interesting to them. The opportunities involved in encouraging a small population to take risks are much less - an independent Scotland would have been a tighter run ship due to its small size, any change would have been faster and more easy to evaluate, a devolved, localised rUK would be, will be a shambles.

Let's get our existing systems straight before we re-invent the wheel.

Numanoid DH gave what he should have lost in a bet on the referendum (his friend would't accept the winnings) to the food bank that we supported before the referendum. Selfish greedy No voters that we are.

Just to clarify.

Statistically - sorry, but I don't agree that the Ashcroft poll is particularly useful at all, if it has a skewed sample for age, it has a skewed sample overall...and yes, you're never going to get a completely even sample in a poll, but it wasn't even close to being a varied enough group. Bearing in mind that I didn't agree with any of the negative opinions stated about demographics that came off the back of it either. I think the yougov one stands up better.

When I was talking about it being a choice between a badly thought out plan for yes or no plan at but definite change for no...I wasn't talking about after the vow, but that that was what both campaigns were saying for a significant time before the vote...there was no option for staying the same and yet that was what no were basing everything on while saying they would also change it.

As I've said before, I assumed the politicians on both sides were talking rubbish.

IMO the yes campaign didn't have enough realistic answers about an independent Scotland, but the No campaign didn't have any about what remaining in a changing UK would mean.

The vow - separately to the rest of the campaign was grandstanding and underhanded.

Anyway, I'm not flouncing or storming off in a huff - I have had some interesting conversations and mostly that's what I came back to say, thanks for the conversations and I'm sure I'll see you all around mumsnet, but I'm sick of the loops of conversation that are happening everywhere and I'm going to try to go back to more normal stuff until things move forward.

BakewellSlice is that a new name you have?

...I'm going to try to go back to more normal stuff until things move forward....

Wise words, tabulah - I should do the same.

Yes dear!