To ask all Scottish MNrs to work together 2

[siiiiiiiiigh]

Sorry, filled the last thread with this, thought I'd better be part of Team Scottish MN and work together for those of us on the old thread...

Here's Armando's thoughts. I vote him in for everything.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/21/scottish-referendum-massive-voter-turnout-means-politics-changed-for-ever

Baby. I never said my mil was "coached" that was your interpretation. Nor did I say she was "isolated" That was your interpretation.

Although given what I know of SNP bil he and his wife and several of the grandchildren and their spouses will have given her the hard sell.

So far as sources of information I profoundly disagree with your views that we should give more credence than traditional media. Heaven help us if anyone made their minds up on the basis of Wings over Scotland.

So far as public meetings , how many people actually attended an equal amount from both sides? I didn't. I read the White Paper, I listened to what Salmond and others had to say. They failed to convince me.

Sorry give social media more credence than traditional media.

"Wholeheartedly agree re: George and Tommy. Awful pair."

My suggestion on Saturday morning was to send all the sectarians from both sides of the divide off to live in an uninhabited Island and give them Tommy Sheridan and Johan Lamont to rule over them all...they can have George as well, I'm ok with that, lol

Do you want me to be a cat? Lick, lick, lick.

Sounds good to me tabulah.

Morris that's put me right off my lunch...

Anyone spotted the news about Nicola Sturgeon persuing Home Rule? I am beginning to wonder if my suspicion that the SNP had a Plan B up their sleeve the whole time is actually spot on. If so, someone in their team knows their Game Theory. I kind of hoped they would as Devo Max was always what I wanted.

My Facebook page is filling up conspiracy theories about vote rigging, one was from a website whose author has written a book about extra terrestrials and believes that large doses of vitamin C can cure Ebola.

I also hate the 45 stuff, dividing the nation into believers and heathens, we are supposed to have outgrown our factional tendencies.

Tommy Sheridan? Really? I will not be voting SNP again if they chum up with him, I have still not forgiven AS for spooking up to Donald Trump!

God no re social media. I felt in the run up with some folk (and since with some friends!) that they seemed to have lost the ability to compare sources in terms of their quality, accuracy, credence... It seemed to just be a volume argument - someone has provided some analysis from a solid statistical source, GERS, ONS,.IFS, investment bank, whatever -let's contradict it with a blog post written by someone with absolutely no experience or qualifications in the area. Some random person on Facebook says their ballot paper was too thin, it must be a fix... Someone else on Facebook claims that they were asked to put yes votes on the no pile and that must be true cos Glasgow was really 90% yes...

At some point the credibility needs considered!

Tabulahrasa

That should be "sooking" not spooking, I wish he had spooked him.

they don't change the fact that the basics of currency, economics and membership of the EU which formed the foundation of iScotland were a mess. I also had a deep distrust of the way any criticism was batted away with claims it was scaremongering

My tuppence worth, and apologies if I'm on the wrong thread- can't work out the purpose of each one. Anyways, my Dh and I voted no. I would describe myself as a reluctant no. We were both ideologically yes, but an economically unconvinced no. Improve the economic arguments of starting up the country and yes would have our vote in future. I would say, we are not too far away from several yes voting friends who expressed relief on Friday that it didn't happen?! It's not just the gap of 10% that needs to be converted, to move to independence without bitterness we need the large majority to agree. Of course if Westminster fucks about with the vows then I think we can anticipate a large swing.

angelina, I was a reluctant no voter too and if I had voted yes, as I swithered about doing, I would have been relieved at the result as well.

Oh Morris. You went there.

I noticed that there was already a backlash against the '45' stuff among yes voters so I'm reckoning that'll get stamped out in the main.

I like this idea (from Bella Caledonia post 'Evolution not Revolution'). To me it seems it would be an incredibly useful tool, and meshes with Armando's thoughts, as he says:

"In a world where we can now source anything online, download anything we want to see from any country in the world, and where we can pick and choose individual tracks, whatever programme, whichever individual item we need from whatever outlet – in this complete shopping basket world, they must be asking why on earth they're being forced to pick one party and its entire list of policies, rather than their own playlist of ideas. It simply doesn't make any kind of sense."

BC:

"Imagine, a website that works like the politicalcompass.org but can plot your principles on a graph that shows you the closest candidate to match yours, without you needing the binary thinking of party identity to help you understand who to vote for. Imagine a website that can shows you every candidate, their voting history on every decision, and the upcoming votes that they’re about to take."

If 10% is too narrow a margin for a NO win, then it would be also be too narrow a margin for a YES win. In that case what would have been a sufficiently large margin? Let's call it 20% then. That would require a 30% swing from NO to YES.

Bah, stupid maths head, I meant a 15% swing from NO to YES.

Hmm some of the well I'd like independence but with a clearer plan confuses me tbh...

How can you have a more definite plan if you can't actually discuss it?

As in, you can't find out from the EU what is most likely to happen because they won't discuss it, so you find out possible ways of joining the EU and push the best one while also going and if that doesn't work we can do these other ones, but we can't tell you what's going to happen until after a yes because that's when they'll talk to us.

Or with anything that involved the UK government having to have their say, where they also wouldn't actually say what their position was going to be on issues if it was a yes, well except no currency union.

So how could any independence campaign, ever, no matter who was running it give facts or certainties with nothing but their own opinion to work on?

If the other sides won't discuss it, what can you do other than give options and say, it depends on what they do if we win?

I'm genuinely interested btw on how people who say they're reluctant no voters because of the uncertainty of plans think any independence campaign could get round that if they're the only ones discussing plans for after independence?

The plans could have been much more realistic and clearer. The currency plan for example -clearly cu wasn't going to happen. At that point a clear step by step plan of what the next options were, how that would work etc was needed. Ditto eu -saying "auto entry " was far too optimistic. They should have said "in an ideal world we would be able to negotiate from within however being pragmatic we would possibly need to follow standard accession protocol. Here's our timetable for how that would work "

There's a huge difference between uncertainty which you have confidence will be managed well, and uncertainty that looks like chaos

How can you have a more definite plan if you can't actually discuss it?

You make a reasonably honest presentation of best and worst case scenarios.

Baby. I never said my mil was "coached" that was your interpretation. Nor did I say she was "isolated" That was your interpretation.

I agree. I accept that - that's what I meant. It sounded from my reading of your post as though she had only her two sons around. I interpreted it wrongly.

Although given what I know of SNP bil he and his wife and several of the grandchildren and their spouses will have given her the hard sell

Well, good for her then, withstanding that onslaught. It must have been difficult (that is sounding sarcastic now that I've typed it, but it isn't).

So far as sources of information I profoundly disagree with your views that we should give more credence than traditional media. Heaven help us if anyone made their minds up on the basis of Wings over Scotland

I don't think we should give more credence to one than the other. I think we should beware of trusting any source and should thoroughly research for ourselves. If I see a link posted online, I am not foolish enough to re-post without taking the time to have a proper look at the evidence. Wings Over Scotland isn't my source of "information", I assure you.

So far as public meetings , how many people actually attended an equal amount from both sides? I didn't. I read the White Paper, I listened to what Salmond and others had to say. They failed to convince me.

You're right. Most people didn't.

Fair enough...see I just bore in mind that they are politicians and that they'll always present the most favourable outcome, looked at the more realistic outcomes and decided if I was ok with that.

I pretty much ignored the whole, we can do all this just because I say so part of it as that is what I expect politicians to say, whoever they are and whatever they're campaigning about, lol.

Which is why it's confused me a bit...I always think politicians are trying to exaggerate at the very least.

But yes, I suppose it wasn't a normal political campaign and shouldn't really have been run like one.

I didn't think either campaign was run particularly well to be fair.

Oh and I did try and ask people about that before the vote, but I was blindly following the SNPs crazy plans or something to that end anyway.

I'm pretty sure thinking that all politicians are at it and spending half a day looking at what the possible routes into the EU were is not blindly following anyone, lol.

So I thought I'd ask now seeing as it is starting to calm down a bit

I wonder if those who'd like repeated referendums until you get the answer you want have considered the destablilisation this would cause?

The recent vote has already involved businesses looking into relocation, so how do you feel they'd react to endless, ongoing uncertainty? At this rate you could end up with a wrecked business base, funding locked up in endless arguments, wealth creation ended and still no independence

Sometime it's wise to be careful what you wish for ...

Some random person on Facebook says their ballot paper was too thin, it must be a fix...
I have to admit that I looked at the ballot paper and thought "Is this it? This looks like something the school's office manager had quickly photocopied and cut with a guillotine." I don't really mind, it certainly did the job, I was just a little amused by it.

Was anyone else asked if they wanted to keep their voting card? I don't think I've ever been asked that before...was it supposed to be some sort of valuable historical document now obviously not worth the paper it was written on since we voted the wrong way?

I was asked if I wanted to keep my voting card. I imagine some people may have been planning to frame them?