to really regret the whole grammar school thing.

[newrecruit]

DS1 is in year 4 (DS2 in year 1).

I went to a girls grammar school and loved it. So when we moved out of London one of the reasons we chose this area was the schools. I don't think we are super selective (don't quite know what that means)

However, I was explaining the schools to him this morning as we drove past one and had an impending feeling of doom.

He's bright but can't be arsed. Resists pushing and I am against tutor on principal. I don't think he'd suit an all boys school.

What have I done! We should have just moved to a comprehensive area with a decent intake.

Some parents are already talking about tutors and its 2 years away. I want to hit them quite hard.

Please pile in and tell me to get a grip.

Dd is at a superselective school and went through the bond work books, practice paper nonsense at home. It probably totalled 2 hours per week. So for one year she had two extra hours work per week. It wasn't that bad. And to give the opposite view to the 'failing at 11yrs old' argument, my dd absolutely thrilled when she passed and really proud of herself and saw a direct benefit to putting in extra work and her achievement.

We're now back at the beginning of the process with DS and I'm glad this is the last time we'll have to help a child through it. I too am against tutoring on principle, however I am realistic that as we live in a grammar area and everyone else is doing it we need to give our child their place on a level playing field. I do quite strongly feel though that anything before Year 5 is unnecessary and if your child really needs that much support then grammar school is not for them.

I think the key to the process is being very realistic about what your child can do. If the school had said dc were unlikely to pass, we we would have thought carefully about moving within the catchment of a good comprehensive school. Our friends did exactly that. Of course that implies the luxury of being able to afford to move. I get annoyed (but sadly not surprised) by parents insisting on putting their children through the 11+ when it is clear their children a)won't pass b)if they scraped through, would be in all the bottom sets at grammar and struggling to achieve.

I personally think the 11+ is a load of crap. It is a system which assesses the children's suitability for ongoing academic achievements without ANY reference to their previous academic achievements and educators who have know them for the past 7yrs which is ludicrous. However it is the system in the area we have chosen to live in so we just have to suck it up.

OP you need to a) get a grip b) don't worry about tutoring until year 5 c) think carefully about whether a mixed school is a definite yes or no factor, mixed grammars are a rare breed
d) stock up on gin for the whole test/results/school allocation day process which is very stressful.

Jennifer, that makes me feel better, thank you.

DS1's main issue is 'managing his distractions'. He is bright and his work is good but he struggles to concentrate and doesn't do enough work in the time required (according to his teacher).

I'm hoping this is something that will get better over time and we are certainly trying to work on it this year.

I am a big fan of grammar schools but the 11+ is a bit of a joke. Dd1 just did some past papers with a friend and passed . She got a place in a super selective. Probably scored the lowest of all her friends,most of whom aced it. She is now in top sets and flying, whilst a lot of them are struggling . The exam can be successfully tutored but make sure your child will thrive on that environment. Maybe they might be happier being one of the bright ones at comprehensive? My younger Dd certainly is and would hate 'geek' school as she so charmingly calls it

OP, I agree that if you're going to go for this grammar school thing, you have to opt for the tutor: everyone else will, so you will be putting your DS at a disadvantage if you don't. He doesn't necessarily have to have lots of sessions, but he needs to learn stuff like pacing himself (ie don't spend half an hour on one difficult question and then not have time for the rest) and what kinds of answers they're looking for. Friends of ours in Kent didn't bother with a tutor, just got a few sample papers from WH Smith's for their DD, and she passed with a good score. (But then, the dad is a headteacher so was able to help her see what was needed in the practice tests). The key thing is not to walk into an exam and not be taken completely by surprise.

Incidentally, I don't believe in grammar schools, but now you're in a grammar school area I think you have to go for it or risk your DS going somewhere mediocre.

We are I guess Super Selective in the sense that we have Grammars without catchments, but not SE so massively less pressure and tutoring.

DD1 is dyslexic and wouldn't have passed (as our test is very heavily Verble reasoning. She's a wizz at NVR).

DD2 could have had a bash, absolutely refused and isn't sad she didn't (her DF is at the grammar but her mum teachers there). She says it's too posh. She thinks she might have liked the more child mixed grammar, but that's even harder for transport (we're 3 miles from the bus routes, so it's really difficult and expensive).

Chilled mixed

Same area. The trouble is, once the grammars have creamed off the top 22% (Judd takes 5%) the comprehensives, which are secondary moderns in reality are left with the the other 78% - the lower ability pupils. They are not true comprehensive schools as in 100% mixed ability.

I disagree about needing a tutor OP. 40% of grammars are using the new tests this year - the tests which are intended to not be capable of being tutored for - and many more grammars are going to go down that route next year. Your DS won't take the test until the year after that, so there should be no need to bring in a tutor. These new tests aren't being made widely available for practice and they are mixed up each year precisely to counter the advantage of tutoring. I think a lot of advice given on these threads is becoming increasingly redundant, simply because people aren't aware of the changes now taking place.

We live in Kent too, however in our area, the 'high' school is getting good results, and would be happy for my DCs to go there if they don't pass the 11+. I think it's worth looking as well that while some of the top 23% will have been coached to the Nth degree, a lot of the ones in say, the top 10% won't have been and will just be the sort of gifted children who'd have been in the top set of everything in a comp that sets students. Any school who can get good results with the 'bright' kids removed must be putting effort in. They can't coast along with bright children doing it themselves.

However, I will be tutoring my DCs, either myself or paying for it, because so many do and the state primaries do so little prep, it's not a 'fair' assessment anymore without it. If your DS is reluctant to be 'pushed' by you, you might well find he'd be better with a tutor. I know teachers who pay for outside tutoring rather than do it themselves because their DCs won't work with them, but will for a stranger. (I also know 2 teachers who did tutoring swaps for their DCs for 11+ for this reason!)

I think you're right. My coaching DS would do no good at all.

How does one find a tutor? Presumably everyone keeps theirs quiet. Do you have to put your name down?

Not for now, obviously but would I need to find one now for Year 5.

If I left the decision until then would it be too late?

If you are looking at Tonbridge/Judd - I can give you the name of an excellent tutor who lives in the Sevenoaks area - that last one he put through the 11+ didnt drop a mark, the two before that only dropped something like 12 marks between them. But I will have to check with him first

newrecruit what happened to your principled objection to tutoring? That was a very quick volte face - less than six hours :)

I wouldn't waste your conscience or your money, because of the new tests.

I do have a principled objection to tutoring. However, I don't want to agonise over it for the next 12 months, change my mind and then realise they were all booked when the kids were in reception

You need to get a tutor I'm afraid. My very bright dgd missed out on a Grammar School place because her parents were totally against tutoring. The ones who passed had all been tutored for at least two years yet in primary school dgd achieved higher scores (SATS and school tests) than most of them. She is now very happy in an excellent comp but 'failing' as she saw it was very hard for her.

I live in a "super selective" grammar school area but the nearest comprehensives are also very good (but hard to get into as the catchment area for each one is so small) and not everyone who could go to the grammar school does.

I think that you either need to get a tutor for year 5 or do some practice papers with your son yourself. Although many people are convinced that those who get in have had at least two years of intensive tutoring but plenty of people (including my dds) only start in year 5 and don't spend more than a couple of hours a week on practice papers etc.

My son has recently sat an entrance exam for a selective school, which use a paper which you supposedly cannot tutor for. He would not have been able to even attempt most of the maths section without tutoring.

Few people would sit a driving test without taking professional lessons and practicing the theory test, I can't see tutoring as any different.

I didn't tutor my child. Then I didn't sleep for 3 months in case one of the borderlines bettered his mark and took his 'rightful' place (I know that sounds so bloody entitled). He was deemed selective, not magnificently and remained in the 'average' set throughout KS3 and 4.

He is brighter than average, not a genius and I never had any delusions about my childs abilities. As with many boys he is innately lazy. He did enough at GCSE to secure a 6th form place. There was no need to excel. He did the same with A level. he deprived me of bragging rights

On past performance, I presume he will scoot through uni on the seat of his pants.

ask around the school, some mums will share details.

Is there a local mums group on facebook? That's often a good place to ask for recommendations (and you'll get older children's mums recommending people they had used).

No way would I sit an exam I hadn't prepared for.

I am anxiously waiting for the results of this year's test for my extremely bright DS1....he has been told he's superselective material, but the maths on the new, "tutor proof' test was a "high level 6" according to one teacher I spoke to, and it seems that most children didn't finish the maths paper this year.....

A bright child in a state school has no chance of passing an exam which covers the whole of the Year 6 curriculum without some preparation IMO. Whether you pay someone to do that (tutor) or do it yourself (tutoring by a different name) in order to stand a chance of competing for a place, they need to have had some preparation. The NVR test could probably be guessed at by a non tutored child, but if you've at least seen some of the types of questions before, that's got to help! State primary schools are NOT ALLOWED to prep the children in any way for the test - in the literature regarding PESE this year, it's in black and white - any school that runs preparation classes or does anything is risking being excluded from the transfer to secondary process.....that was made crystal clear to us by the head of DS's primary school. I know that many primaries don't abide by that - and the preps will have been preparing their children since Reception (and in any case every prep school child I know I also being tutored) so it makes a mockery of the 'tutor proof' test!

It is a hideous stress to place on a 10/11 year old - I wish that they just took something like a CAT test on a random day and neither the child or the parent knew when it was being taken - and that 50% of the score came from that and 50% from their academic achievement over the year....I have no idea who that would work, but it would make it less of a lottery (perhaps!), and at least give children from less affluent homes where tutoring isn't an option, a chance at a grammar school place.

Panicmode - I heard from lots of people (including teaching colleagues who couldn't give specifics but had seen the paper) that the maths was very hard. Obviously all the children will have found it the same so as they work out pass marks on a distribution curve no-one is at a disadvantage. Try not to worry, I've been there and the wait for results seemed to stretch on foreeeever!

OP, it's not too late. You have time still to move, if you get your skates on. If you are going to stay, you probably need to give in and get a tutor, so your ds us on a level playing field.

I didn't start until Jan of year 5 and they were bored of it in the last few months.Anything before year 5 is pointless imvho.If they're bright a year is more than enough.

Both my DDs went to grammar schools.

Firstly, you are worrying FAR too early; he's Y4, he has an awful lot of growing up before he gets to 11+ age.

Secondly, both of mine were lazy little arses at that age; if he's at a school where the ethos is geared towards getting them in the local grammar, the school will make sure that their able pupils get all the pushing and coaching they need.

Seriously, don't worry about it, the best thing you can do us to relax, and not make a big deal out of it to him. Encourage him to do the work, but make sure you don't stress him out about it, nothing will put him off faster than that.