To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

"that yearning for public acceptance and not getting it, but wanting is the feeling of being English"

but, being english is the default british identity! look at all the us tv - british = english. being english is in general very much accepted. there are more regional prejudices within england of course - e.g. regional accents being looked down on compared to RP

What are you defining as modern though Marmite

you've said yourself marmite that the english are not a homogeneous group, so in a sense being proud of being english is meaningless, because it's being proud of an inaccurate generalisation

What's "modern Englishness"?

To me Maid, that yearning for public acceptance and not getting it, but wanting is the feeling of being English.

By that logic, if you had 'public acceptance' (whatever that is), then the essence of 'the feeling of being English' would be gone!

No it isn't Petula! RP is not English. It's linked to a social strata! You're talking about Englishness coming from the language, English, it doesn't. That is old thinking that keeps the links to colonialism alive!

Are, it's so hard to put into words, but 'aint bobbies on the beat and fucking afternoon tea and Pillar boxes or the friffing royals! It's the interplay between diverse people, each bringing things to a communal table, united in pride at living in country where that happens.

I think, but it's hard to write it down.

Do you mean that you want to be able to celebrate St George's Day and fly the flag when the football team are playing without feeling that you are excluding others?

I'm still not sure where the pride for the country comes from.

that yearning for public acceptance and not getting it, but wanting is the feeling of being English

I'm not sure we're getting at the same things.

To stereotype:
One might be proud to be Scottish when your country produces a Wimbledon champion. You feel proud to be part of a society that offered the training, the facilities and the aspiration to become a great sportsperson.

What, for you, are some key things that invoke pride in being English? Because without any such things, what you appear to be asserting is the right to be proud to be English simply as a reaction to other nations heralding their own national identity. And that soon slides into unpleasantness.

By that definition, here in Wales we are 'modern English'.

Oh, and I would add that in my example above, I still don't get why anyone would be proud to be "Scottish" in that example, but I imagine it represents a commonly quoted source of national pride. I agree with Hakluyt and would say that Andy Murray is a product of his society, not of the mud he was born on.

Yes it would Janine, because I'm an English human. Though I still want to be able to say I am English without a load of background bullshit, once that's gone I can just be openly me and feel English and feel I can say it.

Marmite!
I love being English. Best country ever, in my opionion. (and I've travelled a Lot)
And If other people disagree it's up to them. But nobody's going to tell me what to think and feel and try and make me feel guilty about how I choose to feel.

Be proud of your country.

.

No, Legion I'm not.

"No it isn't Petula! RP is not English. It's linked to a social strata!"

i know this. that is what i have said.

would it be better to rephrase as "i want the diversity of cultures and history in england to be better represented rather than restricted to english gent / cockney geezer"? because that i agree with. i just can't get on board with this idea of english people as some kind of oppressed misunderstood minority group

^^ This. I think the British legal system is pretty good (at least in principle) but I can't take credit for it any more than I feel personally ashamed for slavery. Equally, democracy is good but I'm lucky I was born into one. I think it's worth preserving but proud somehow seems the wrong word.

I have never understood the feelings that go with flags, nor do I well up at Last Night of The Proms. I would rather copy good ideas used by other countries than stick with tradition but would support an English regional parliment. Not very patriotic.

No you'd be modern Welsh, Are

It's the interplay between diverse people, each bringing things to a communal table, united in pride at living in country where that happens

Is this something you think unique to England? Do they not do that in Scotland and in Wales? If so, why do you not feel British?

The 'background bullshit' had and still has quite an effect on millions of people's lives, so you should be prepared that others don't dismiss it as readily as you do.

That's the great thing Petula You don't have to get on board, I'm not asking for that, just want to express how I personally feel!

"The 'background bullshit' had and still has quite an effect on millions of people's lives, so you should be prepared that others don't dismiss it as readily as you do."

i agree with this

Best country ever, in my opi[o]nion

Be proud of your country

I don't see the link between these two statements. Maybe I'm missing something.

I love Last night of The Proms. I watch it every year and hope to go see it for real some time.

YANBU

It's a normal, I'd venture universal, human response you are having. We are watching a full blown pantomime of what Freud referred to as "the narcism of small differences."

People need to direct the 'background bullshit' towards the institutions that did it, not the individuals without control over it Janine. I'm not dismissing the impact, just the misdirected blame for it.