To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

i haven't been dismissive of your experiences. it sounds shit and scary and you shouldn't have to put up with that.

it just doesn't mean that english people as a group are an oppressed nationality

Me too walter I love seeing my Irish family regularly, would be if it got difficult again!

people can identify as english if they want. it's the pride i find odd, and the idea that past actions that have led to today's privileges can be dismissed as "backstory bullshit"

I never dismissed it as that, I explained that the bullshit part comes when people will not acknowledge the acknowledgement of fault and continue to blame individuals with no power.

Do you really see no reason why the Irish and the ascots might just feel a bit anti English, if they are as proud of their heritage as you are?

Obviously, there is no excuse for violence.

Yeah, those pesky natives. We did exploit their country's people and resources for hundreds of years, fucked up their societies, and still prosper off the back of that exploitation, but we've said sorry! What more do they want?!

I don't think the facts support pinning all the blame for Empire and Colonialism on the English. It was a very British venture.

I never said I didn't understand it Hakluyt, just that I don't appreciate the seeming acceptability of abuse and shame directed at being English as opposed to Scottish, Welsh or Irish. I'm just as entitled to express my feeling of pride as anyone else.

empire and colonialism aren't the extent of britain or england's bad behaviour towards other nations

"Ascots"-

Deeply unfortunate typo for Scots!

Janine You're at it again! I never said anything even close to that and you know it. I said, individuals can't do much to alter things that happened then, now. I do practical things as I said upthread. Yet the individuals are still blame not the rulers or those with power.

Expand if you will Petula

Yeah, those pesky natives. We did exploit their country's people and resources for hundreds of years, fucked up their societies, and still prosper off the back of that exploitation, but we've said sorry! What more do they want?!

This.

Saying sorry yet failing to do anything about the problems, by anyone's measure in any scenario, a rather empty apology.

I'll be away a minute, not flouncing, just hungry!

But what can individuals do Maid?

people have already mentioned the way that the english (the political class of course, but backed by many ordinary english people) have treated the welsh, irish and scots

Petula, you seem to be trying a sleight of hand.

You admit that "the English" doesn't consist of homogenous privileged people. Then try to characterise "the English" as privileged and oppressing, as opposed to "the Scots".

Sorry, but as I've pointed out, Scots also perfectly capable of being nationalism-driven oppressors, both this side of the equator and 'tother.

(Only picking up on Scotland because it's what I know.)

um yes, but the scots haven't systematically oppressed the english have they, in the way of, say, the highland clearances? i'm talking about that direct relationship between the two.

Well, they can vote for a start and lots of people don't bother to do that.

They can learn about their history and where the wealth of this nation came from.

They can make ethical decisions about where to shop, what to buy and where they invest their pension pot.

They could look at their carbon foortprint and reduce it.

They could accept having a little less so that other people could have a bit more.

When you are fortunate enough to be a member of a wealthy long-standing democracy, just blaming the government, the institutions and history doesn't really cut it.

My family weren't acting as individuals, btw. They were funded by their church communities in Scotland, and their actions lauded in newspapers articles about their saintly work "where no white man had been before" among the poor "savages" they were improving.

being english, in general, affords you more privilege than other nationalities

within the group of english people, there will be varying degrees of privilege - some have none at all, others have lots. however as a group, there is more privilege than is afforded other nationalities, and that is as a result of actions in the past that have benefited the english to the detriment of other nationalities

I really don't get your point, Petula.

Are you OK with people feeling an identity as a Scot? Let's start from there.

Up thread you'll see I do all those things Barbarian, yet I still get flack. What else can I do to stop it.

i don't really get your point either surely

just because the scots were involved in colonialism they can't have been systematically mistreated by the english?

But are you OK with people feeling an identity as a Scot?