Indyref 13 - the one where people are nice to each other

[StatisticallyChallenged]

This is continuation of the previous threads. I'm hoping this can be a thread for civilised debate and discussion from people on both sides of the voting line, and where undecided voters can come and chat and get opinions.

Some of the previous threads have gone downhill. So for the sake of a good discussion can everyone please try to avoid nasty comments about the other side? References to Nazis, people being selfish, stupid, thick etc don't help anyone. This vote will be over and the votes counted in about 48 hours. After that we have to pull together whatever the outcome.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29231440

has a one liner about police investigation

Sallyingforth What you've said doesn't completely add up with what they propose, they don't want to get rid of nuclear power overnight. They've made a briefing note on the energy point here:

Green Yes on Energy Independence

Pensioners dying of cold in winter is, unfortunately, a current, ongoing problem. I hope that whoever is in power, from whichever Government, would address this problem more.

Good posts earlier on the voting and counting process. Just a quick correction on verification of postal votes though - both envelopes are opened at the verification stage. This is to check that the number on the ballot paper matches the one on, I think, the declaration of identity. However, the ballot papers should all be kept face down, and no dividing or counting of votes takes place at verification stage, although the envelopes will have been sorted by polling district before the verification process starts.

Actually, IF the vote goes to the Yes majority I would be much more confident in iScotland's future success if Gordon Brown was Scotland's first minister.

I would also be more confident in amicable relations between iScotland and rUk - he is a professional Politician (and an impassioned Scot). Although he would have Scots interest first and foremost, quite rightly, he would also be a reasonable and pragmatic negotiator. I could actually trust that agreements reached between the two countries could be for mutual benefit and would be fair.

I really can't see AS or NS negotiating at WM.........

(I should declare that I am English but not voted Labour since Blairs second term.)

Thanks for that ChillieJeanie!

Suspect most of us were feeding/bathing/bedding kids Mindreader - it always slows down a wee bit at this time.

From the Greens Yes briefing note on energy independence:

Scotland could be the first nation state to be powered entirely on renewables, and position itself as a powerful electricity exporter to Northern and Western Europe

Eh, that's not physically possible with current technology...

I'd actually agree there BMW6. Unfortunately for all it's going to be a cross party "Team Scotland", Alex is the FM who will be leading the team, with Nic close behind. The tone of our future will be driven by them. Our constitution will be driven by them

And I don't believe they are up to the job.

Which part, Baker? Or all of that statement?

could BakerStreetSaxRift could. The wording of briefing notes is all.

I think it's could because it all depends on the vote, not because the plan is impossible.

I've actually read further and the vast majority of that paper is mince.

They want to fill the (many, many thousands of) jobs lost from the oil/gas/nuclear industry with decommissioning and renewable generation.

How many hundreds of workers do you tend to see working on an operational windfarm?

Sallyingforth
What is going to happen to all of the nuclear waste generated by Scotland in the shortterm?

But the plan IS impossible! It's physically impossible.

But you see Numanoid that's the awful beauty of it which is that what you have on record is interpretable in many ways.

There are some basic rules for political briefings and political papers including white papers mainly

You include what your audiences want to hear
You include what your audiences need to be told
You don't actually lie in print. (Oral slip ups are much easier to get out of for an organisation if not always for an individual.)

Then you write them using lots of bolded figures to catch the eye and lots of slippery words to fog the mind and in such a way that they can be all things to all people for a long long time.

Sometime in the dead of night why not read the SNP White Paper and see how many 'straight' statements there are about anything.

I am still undecided- as is my son who will be voting for the first time. OH is completely confident about which way he sits. We have had to put an embargo on political discussion in this house for te past few days, as OHs feelings run too high.

The greens were in a difficult position and they let down their side I think. I have deep concern for enironmental issues because they generally lose out to immediate or direct financial advantage. The separatists would be no good guardians of Scotland's environment.

Combust22, is there anything which it would be helpful for you to chat over? There are Yes and Nos on here.

I'm sorry for you in that position combust22. My own family is divided and it's not an easy situation at all. I hope you resolve things OK particularly for your poor DS who must be torn.

I agree OneNight, the green policies will be amongst the first to fly out the window in the face of inevitable spending cuts. Mind they'll probably have to increase tax on fuel along with everything else so that's probably green

I suppose there isn't really much point in mentioning that almost everything proposed by every side is put across as a promise or intended plan.

Good luck in deciding combust22, there's plenty of information out there. :)

Thanks satisticallychallenged - I think I am beyond help. I have read widely, spoken to members of both sides, but it seems the more I delve the more confused I become.

Onenight thanks- my son is deeply amvibalent!Although he is aware of all the issues, he has grown up with such a politically minded father that it's all a bit of a yawn to him.

R.e. ballot spoiling - I fear I was on a train for a while so got a bit behind. But there seems to have been a bit of criticism r.e. that.

Obviously everyone should do there absolute best to make an informed decision (and I did point Tunnocks to a list of I think potentially helpful links with info and arguments from both sides - see below), but I also think it's problematic if you genuinely don't know to feel that you have to vote one way or the other. On the other hand, you should get out there and take advantage of your democratic right to vote. As I understand it, a spoiled vote in this country is counted. A spoiled vote is a hell of a lot better than just not going out to vote - also thinking about the question that someone raised about the 20% who may not vote. I think for some of those people paralysis over the decision may well be a reason. A spoiled ballot is a statement that says "I was convinced by neither side". It doesn't affect the overall count but it's still participation in the democratic discussion.

Does that make sense or have I misunderstood ballot spoiling?

I would always encourage people, even now, to make a decision, but if it's a case of not going, or going and spoiling a ballot, then the latter seems the lesser of two evils?

If someone were "leaning" to no then they should get out there and put their tick next to "no". And a previously undecided person who gets out there with the intention of spoiling might suddenly find a conviction either way once in the polling booth. But if they don't go out of indecision there's no chance of that.

And surely it's more problematic to say to a truly undecided person that they must vote one way or the other? Once again, it seems to me that the fact that spoilt ballots are counted in this country makes the statement that true indecision shouldn't disbar you from visibly participating in the democratic process...

womenforindependencenefife.weebly.com/blog/many-questions-a-few-answers

My position on the environment is not inconsistent by the way. I don't think the issues have been addressed properly by any government and I suspect that time has almost run out for some things to be fixed. I just have more confidence that with the new resurgence in political activity in Scotland and in the event of tomorrow's No vote the matters can be dealt with leaning upon increased grass roots work and without savage cuts impacting on central budgets and individual households.

I shall probably formally join my local green party next week and whoever is in power may not find me an easy bedfellow.

Evening all. Big Yes voter here. As is dh and my Mum.

Not sure about my Dad and sis. My brother is a big Yes but can't vote as he lives in England.

Of my Facebook friends, most are Yes.

Of the people I speak with day to day I'd say it's about 50/50.

I've believed for a while now that there's no changing anyone's mind. Rather, the last few weeks has been about validating our beliefs.

I'm heartened that so many people have been so engaged in politics.