Indyref 13 - the one where people are nice to each other

[StatisticallyChallenged]

This is continuation of the previous threads. I'm hoping this can be a thread for civilised debate and discussion from people on both sides of the voting line, and where undecided voters can come and chat and get opinions.

Some of the previous threads have gone downhill. So for the sake of a good discussion can everyone please try to avoid nasty comments about the other side? References to Nazis, people being selfish, stupid, thick etc don't help anyone. This vote will be over and the votes counted in about 48 hours. After that we have to pull together whatever the outcome.

Gordon Brown's speech just reinforced my reasons for voting Yes. It's a win-win for him because if tomorrow's a majority No he's quid's in because he'll have it credited to that speech he made this morning. If it's a Yes majority he'll blame Darling, and Brown will still manage to look the champion.

I disagree IrnBru. I know the man of old and that was a speech of real passion and belief. He wasn't making it cynically.

TunnocksCW.

UK has said no to a currency union. Let's assume they mean it. That means that what we will do, according to Salmond and co, is just keep using the pound. We can do that - any country can. Countries which issue their own currency, like the UK, have a central bank which can literally print their own money when they need it. We wouldn't have the ability to do that, because we'd be using someone else's currency. So we would need to hold a big reserve - savings if you like - to make sure the economy stayed stable.

The problem is that to build those reserves, the government would need to spend considerably less than it does at the moment. That's not an international change, it's a local one. You can't build up a pot of savings when you are spending more than you earn already. You have to cut back.

Last year, about £65 billion pounds was spent on services in/for Scotland - Education, Welfare, Pensions, Health, Social care, etc etc etc. That was roughly £15 billion more than our income. And we need to have spare cash - to save for the reserves.

We'd also need to start building those reserves quickly.

There's also a reasonable chance that whilst all this is going on, our income will be going down at least in the short term. When the companies move their head offices (which some of them have to do because of regulations) they will be based in England. Most of their customers will be based in England. That means that most of their tax will also be paid in England. Which reduces the amount of money the government has to spend.

I don't like what he did to peoples pensions and I won't get over it. DH could have had a much better pension when he retires but sadly not now thanks to Gordon Brown. He's screwed lots of people over.

Agree, most people have already made their mind up. What way are you voting irn, I don't think you mentioned it

Don't agree about Gordon Brown though, honestly I thought he was inspiring and before this I was the last person in the world to compliment him.

tunnocks a no vote is a lot less upheaval. Plus we get more powers. A yes vote is uncertainty for years and an unknown currency.

Mumsnet checked it out and found this so think it's legit in the sense that it's maybe not intentionally biased.

However "analysed the manifestos from the referendum campaigns" may not have been the best way to compile it, given what the white paper is like... (its not campaign promises like in an election... it just isn't written definitively...) and it takes its assertions at face value. And the questions are leading.

I got 'No' when I took it, and I answered it honestly with some yes and no answers. I'm not defending it as such because I was so suspicious I reported it to Mumsnet but I wonder if its badly designed rather than deliberately planted.

(There was one survey thing going round facebook a week or so ago that was clearly designed to tell people to vote yes). Wanting to be in the EU moved you to a yes vote... despite the risks of ending up outside the EU with independence and the so-so chance of having an EU referendum and then there being an out vote. )

A No vote means you're screwed. Westminster are hardly going to grant more devolution now are they? Lord Barnett wants the Barnett Formula scrapped. There's nothing concrete been said.

Devo Max should have been on the ballot paper in the first place. Now the No campaign are panicking and inviting Brown in a desperate plea to save the 'Union'. A few days before going to the polls!

IrnBru final salary pensions were already in massive decline before Brown went anywhere near them.

from bbc news "Police Scotland is investigating a complaint that an electoral counting officer in Edinburgh has made public details of the postal ballots cast in the council area."

What did he reveal then? yes or no in the lead?

"final salary pensions were already in massive decline before Brown went anywhere near them."

I know a lot of people who have final salary pensions, but their situations become worse once Brown intervened. He has ruined a lot of peoples lives.

Lord Barnett has what role nowadays, exactly? He has no power to change the formula whether he thinks it should be or not

I'd be very surprised if there was a wholesale back down on more powers. they've literally yelled it in front of the world's press.

I'd have thought that was a criminal offence?

Feast your eyes on this nugget:

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1603390/Browns-pension-raid-cost-savers-pound100bn.html

I have unfriended people on facebook who I have previously liked a lot. They won't be friends again afterwards - I think completely differently of them. My relationship with my sister in law is permanently damaged too as we had a huge barney about it. She is yes, I am no. My sister and her husband are not speaking. It has been so damaging.

From the article:

"For every one of Britain's 20m people currently saving into a pension scheme, it means they will retire on less money."

You seem very eager for us to discuss Gordon Brown all of a sudden?

I think from reading this thread you'd think the sun shone out of Gordon Brown's arse. Do you people forget how he devastated lives after raiding the pension pot? No?

irn I truly believe that the promises for change will not be reneged upon. Same as everything, there will be barriers to overcome and negotiations with other people but that could also be said for what Salmond has promised post independence. I'm just choosing to believe the UK parliament promises will be delivered.

frankie80 I saw that idiot on twitter this morning saying 'my friend works as a counting officer and has told me all the postal votes are for Yes'....

....cue everyone else replying 'ummmm, that's illegal you know' and copying in various offical types.

Dimwit.

Good article.

Not RTFT but I'm also remembering that he sold the country's gold reserves at rock bottom prices and immediately prior to a massive hike in gold prices. What a donut. Politically I wouldn't trust him, though I believe he is a sweetheart IRL.

I suppose if you don't have a public pension scheme yourself, these articles aren't really of any interest to you, what Gordon Brown done all those years ago. Well, it's still having an impact now.

Yes, this issue has been deeply damaging and I blame the parties for allowing the tone to be set by others and not I assume themselves.

I think Gordon's rousing speech has made certain people uneasy.

Will try and pop on later folks, have dinner to sort out.