Indyref 13 - the one where people are nice to each other

[StatisticallyChallenged]

This is continuation of the previous threads. I'm hoping this can be a thread for civilised debate and discussion from people on both sides of the voting line, and where undecided voters can come and chat and get opinions.

Some of the previous threads have gone downhill. So for the sake of a good discussion can everyone please try to avoid nasty comments about the other side? References to Nazis, people being selfish, stupid, thick etc don't help anyone. This vote will be over and the votes counted in about 48 hours. After that we have to pull together whatever the outcome.

Wow, they should have had Gordon on board a LONG time ago.

Whatever happens in the referendum his contribution will go some way towards a personal career rebirth.

If it is a yes vote the negotiations for the cost and terms of the CU will surely be the first thing that needs negotiated:

Is it possible?
Can we get rUK to agree a union?How long will it take to negotiate?
How much will it cost us?
What terms can be negotiated?
Is a CU sustainable?
How would this work if Scotland is out of EU waiting for membership for 5 years and rUK is still in EU?

The list goes on....it's a mess.
It's too much of a risk.

Wow to Gordon.
He is passionate and he is showing charisma!

squoosh

I think that that speech has finished Alex Salmond whatever happens tomorrow.

GB was brilliant. I want to see him as First Minister at next election.

I am going to vote. I always do vote. My experience is this makes little difference, not sure this one is the one where my vote will actually bring about change. Unlike almost everyone I am neither passionate or weeping and wailing about it, I just think it will be another ineffectual bunch of paperwork. Can someone give me some reason to care, one way or the other?

I am a middle aged SAHM with no prospect of a job, no pension or savings, an " invisible " . We are not well off and juggle the bills like anyone but I do volunteer and see what true disadvantage is.

My son is a politics student and he and his dad are debating and getting passionate all over the place, I am not very politically aware or articulate so want to make up my own mind away from them. I just feel resigned to more people not getting what they want, either way.

Can anyone boil it down for me or am I too late?

That was very, very good. Finally someone shouting about the reserves issue too which had been bugging the heck out of me!

Well it certainly adds a new piece of party political propaganda mumsbox although they should arguably have included at least some mention of the risks if only for balance.

OneNight that's the first speech of the whole referendum that has actually stirred me. Everything till now else has been so limp.

I think it will come to be recognised as one of Brown's (positive) memorable career moments.

You can post it on twitter ....

#VoteNo

Tunnocks, for me the economic arguments are the killer. The currency issue is huge:

Currency Union: the UK says no. But if they said yes, it would be under immensely strict terms. Have a read of this from credit suisse. A surplus. Last year we spent £15 billion more than our revenues. I put a picture upthread which shows where that money goes on but our total spending in Scotland is £65 billion so this is a huge amount to cut.

Just using the pound - if you use a currency without a central bank, you need massive reserves to do so. The low end estimate of the reserves we'd need is £30billion. I mentioned the size of the deficit above - to built reserves we'd need a surplus of 5-10%. Even bigger cuts

Pegged currency - this seems to be their final option. Hong Kong does this. They also have reserves of more than a year's worth of GDP to make it viable and support their financial system. Scotland's GDP is in the region of £140bn. We have a deficit.

You can't make the currency options work without massive cuts. Way bigger than what the Tories propose. And that's before you even start on the potential economic destruction of large companies moving and taking most of their tax revenues with them.

It's not about the politicians or the campaigns. For me its about what this will do to the poorest in Scotland. What it will do to our children's opportunities. These cuts will hurt the poorest and most vulnerable the most.

Fontella - I don't do twitter, but I hope others do and post it there. Everyone needs to listen to what he is saying.

tunnocks I'm sorry you feel invisible, I'm sure you're not.
You are as entitled to a vote as anyone else, if you want to use it then do it.

The only thing I will say, I am voting no because I want to be able to challenge disadvantage/poverty in my own small way, everywhere in the UK, not just Scotland.

Tunnocks welcome to the debate

I'm sure there will be some very knowledgable people along to help you.

Have a look at some of the links that people have posted as they are usually a good place to start.

Have you got anything in particular that you have questions about?

Cross posts with everyone I'm useless at typing fast

Wow, they should have had Gordon on board a LONG time ago.

Personally Squoosh I think it's good that they didn't.

He'd have been discredited, torn apart, character assasinated in the run up - shit Prime Minister etc. etc (which let's face it is what a lot of us thought) part of the British establishment, what does he know etc etc.

The fact that he's stepped up to the plate as a critical moment I think is hugely important. It really is 'cometh the hour .. cometh the man' as the old proverb states.

Now he brings a fresh perspective and a passion to the debate and I don't give a shit what anyone says, that bloke loves Scotland - every molecule of him - that comes across more than anything in that speech.

I also had to chuckle as you can see a very relived Alistair Darling sat on the front row and his expression is saying 'Thank f*ck, the cavalry's arrived!'

I would post it on twitter but mine is linked to my job and I need to keep it pretty neutral.

Good point Fontella, so many people still see him as the bogey man and seeing as he's a grumpy sod, it might have gone badly wrong very early on!

He's certainly having his moment now. He's the 7th most tweeted thing on twitter right now, that means a lot of people have watched that speech.

Crikey, Gordon Brown, who would have thought?
Made me go all teary and I'm not Scottish or British.

Thank you people. I will have a look at the thing mumbox posted as well. I grew up with recessions, miners strikes etc people had little and any boom years passed me by. I don't understand economic arguments, its all numbers and I don't trust them. I will be voting but I want it to mean something.

Made me go all teary and I'm not Scottish or British.

Me too. I had to kick myself and say 'he's not talking about you dear'.

Have any of you seen this... scotland.tickbox.org.uk/ My 16 year old son heard about it from school. Said it was really good at comparing the two sides of the Scottish Referendum and really easy to understand! Adding a new perspective to the debate.

Er ... I just did it as a non Scottish person who can't vote and is against the the break up of the UK - clicked 'no' to everything and it told me

It looks like you're a 'Yes'. You should mark you ballot paper "YES" ON THE 18th

Funny old 'help you decide' that?!?! Not skewed or anything ....

TunnocksCW, please look at the economics. I know the numbers are a nightmare - my background is finance and I've spent hours...ok days...trawling through them to get an understanding of what it means. But they matter so, so much to this debate. What the SNP are promising - they can't deliver. They don't have the money.

Pretty much every economic expert worth their salt is now saying that this is a disaster waiting to happen.

Just because I'm voting no doesn't mean it doesn't mean something. My vote means a lot to me.