Indyref 13 - the one where people are nice to each other

[StatisticallyChallenged]

This is continuation of the previous threads. I'm hoping this can be a thread for civilised debate and discussion from people on both sides of the voting line, and where undecided voters can come and chat and get opinions.

Some of the previous threads have gone downhill. So for the sake of a good discussion can everyone please try to avoid nasty comments about the other side? References to Nazis, people being selfish, stupid, thick etc don't help anyone. This vote will be over and the votes counted in about 48 hours. After that we have to pull together whatever the outcome.

I don't think much is being done anywhere in Scotland at the moment unless you've got babies or gas mains to fix for example or other sorts of things that just won't take care of themselves.

Just typing and running. But read a little of the ridiculous insults and anecdotes of social
Unrest etc on the last thread and hoped the posters responsible had read this

"The referendum debate has been robust but overwhelmingly good natured.

It was inevitable that the closer we came to the 18th of September passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth.

Scotland’s citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding and tolerant and it is preposterous to imply that by placing a cross in a box, our citizens will suddenly abandon the personal virtues and values held dear to them all.

At this time it is more important than ever that individuals be they politicians, journalists or whoever should carefully consider their words, maintain level heads and act with respect. Respect is not demonstrated by suggesting a minority of mindless idiots are representative of anything. One of the many joys of this campaign has been how it has awakened political awareness across almost every single section of society. The success enjoyed by the many should not be sullied by the actions of the few."

A statement from the Scottish Police Federation.

I agree and apologies if I offended anyone. I'm just talking about the people I know.

I've taken time off work but I knock doors rather than wave flags.

I have been lurking on these threads for weeks but haven't commented. I have changed my mind so many times - I was a true undecided, then a no, then a yes, now I think I'm back at no.

I am not opposed to the abstract concept of independence and think in theory it's a good idea. However, the economic arguments are swinging it for me. Too much is unclear in that area - and I'm not one of those who is prepared for things to get worse before they get better, however selfish that makes me (according to yes campaigners). I can imagine years and years of struggle.

I also think that the Yes campaign is pinning its hopes on a utopian ideal which is highly unrealistic.

So like some pp I suppose my heart is a kind of yes, but my head says no.

I'm spending an inordinate amount rather a lot of time on this at the moment and I'm a No, so not sure that plays out, Frankie.

Just a couple of thoughts on the interview with David Dimbleby last night. I only saw the last 20 minutes, so obviously just Alex Salmond. But two things that struck me, Dimbleby didn't push Salmond on the currency, did he?

AS said that there had been opinion from the Treasury, (but this was just a negotiating position), but nothing from the Bank of England. But Mark Carney has said it would be unworkable hasn't he? Why didn't Dimbleby push him on that?

Also, did anyone have a feeling that Salmond was, well not exactly back-tracking, but drawing back slightly from his previously quite aggressive narrative? This talk of 'I don't like the phrase 'foreign country' and 'friendly neighbours' etc.

I am wondering whether, in the event of a narrow Yes majority, he will spin it as not enough of a democratic mandate, and try to negotiate some sort of devo max option anyway. Would that even be possible? (I know I'm getting into the realms of fantasty here btw!)

I'm mainly a SAHM (though have just registered as self employed so I can take on some art commissions which I hope to build up to an evening weekend job) and DH works fulltime, both voting No.

Folk who volunteer in politics sometimes take some annual leave leading up to elections so they can do more. DH has in the past. I imagine many Yes activists will have taken annual leave for all or part of this week - it'll be a late night/early morning for people attending the counts if nothing else.

DH has taken Thursday/Fri off. I don't think it's helpful to assume things of either side.

Th economy isn't just about business, this article is excellent

www.standard.co.uk/business/markets/anthony-hilton-the-real-value-of-voluntary-work-is-too-big-to-ignore-9735389.html?origin=internalSearch

Daughter it's an interesting article, and I take the point that the Yes campaign has caught that strong feeling that it's not all about the money - but I don't think one can use it as support for the Yes campaign as a whole.

I don't think anyone suggested it was just about business. I'm more concerned about currency than businesses directly, although losing them would hurt us.

I am wondering whether, in the event of a narrow Yes majority, he will spin it as not enough of a democratic mandate, and try to negotiate some sort of devo max option anyway. Would that even be possible? (I know I'm getting into the realms of fantasty here btw!)

He couldn't do that. This is a straight in out referendum based upon a majority. That majority could be one vote. 50% + 1 vote would decide it. You imagine how all those who voted 'Yes' would feel if he then changed the goalposts after the event and said 'you've voted for independence but I've changed my mind. We'll negotiate for devo max instead.' They'd go nuts - and rightly so.

I think AS's spin was for dithering potential Yes voters who actually don't like the idea of Scotland and England being foreign countries. He's using different language to make it sound less radical

Yes, you must both be right. I wondered if it'd end up being independence in name but not in nature. By my understanding, this is what a currency union with UK (if it is ever allowed) would look like anyway. Very tight fiscal and monetary control from Westminster.

yup, if they got a CU by some miracle it would probably mean exceptionally tight controls from WM. Post eurozone they are not up for the risks of bailing out another country.

It's all just so complicated. It's making feel ill, but I know lots of yes voters also feel ill and upset around this referendum too. I sympathise with the yes vote. I wish I was a yes voter, it looks fun. But I'm not, because I don't believe it's the best thing for Scotland

Everything you said, Morris, everything. That's exactly how I feel.

I expressed sadness on here at the weekend because all my friends were at the Yes rallies and usually we stand together on most issues. I was, unfortunately, advised not to be stupid as 'it's not about a bloody party,' but growing up in a similar environment to you, I want to be able to organise, march and feel like a functioning, supportive part of something. And I can't ally myself to the BT campaign because it's dire.

My parents informed my politics so much. My grandad was a miner and my mother emphasised to me from a young age about how important it was that my family stood with the miners, and that we should organise if our rights as citizens, as women, as workers are threatened.

I don't think the press are probing the CU question enough.

Wow!

Is this the same bloke who used to be Prime Minister of the UK?

Barnstorming speech from Gordon Brown:

For some reason the currency issue hasn't properly clicked with people. It's a mix of "what does it matter what we use" and the whole "we can use the £ anyway" argument which seems to have managed to stop it being properly discussed

What's the old saying

'cometh the hour .. cometh the man'

No campaign, I think you just got your man - Gordon Brown.

That was truly impassioned from Gordon Brown. I don't think I've ever known him so exercised in public.

Darn i haven't seen it. Will try to find it to watch

Darn i haven't seen it. Will try to find it to watch

Stats Here you go ...

Vezzie

"Culloden
Poll Tax
Thatcher
Hitler"

How are those 4 things in the same category? Thatcher and poll tax are within living memory; Thatcher is widely hailed as an icon of the current Tory party. Any person in the UK who is influenced by the legacy of Thatcher, and an aversion to it, is making rational decisions.

That is what I asked, Vezzie. According to the people who were debating on Facebook, these are all valid reasons to vote "Yes" because the logical conclusion of a No vote is that you support evil (and these were all mentioned).

I was confused too. I have heard both sides of the argument put very eloquently on here - with lots and lots of facts from the No side and a lot of passion from both sides. However, this group of Yes voters I was debating with completely bewildered me.

Oh my dear God. That was the speech of the campaign. I have never voted labour, I am blown away by Gordon Brown today. Thanks for the link.

Impressive isn't it WT now, how do we get it out there?

It would be good if people could post it on whatever social media they use!