Indyref 13 - the one where people are nice to each other

[StatisticallyChallenged]

This is continuation of the previous threads. I'm hoping this can be a thread for civilised debate and discussion from people on both sides of the voting line, and where undecided voters can come and chat and get opinions.

Some of the previous threads have gone downhill. So for the sake of a good discussion can everyone please try to avoid nasty comments about the other side? References to Nazis, people being selfish, stupid, thick etc don't help anyone. This vote will be over and the votes counted in about 48 hours. After that we have to pull together whatever the outcome.

trixy I think that's a good description.

I'm ignoring FB. Just can't be arsed with it. There's no point trying to discuss with ideologues and propagandists.

To anyone undecided, please please please vote. Preferably no, but if you want to vote yes that's up to you But please make your mark- we're so lucky to be able to do that.

YY to waiting for medical results.

I quite like the idea of pretending god will be telling you how to vote!

I think that a Yes vote will result in at least short to medium term hardship generally which is likely to affect the poor worse.

The White Paper does not give any concrete commitments to those on benefits for example. It does say on page 156 that The Expert Working Group recommendations on the benefit system will be available well in advance of the referendum. I'm about to do a search to see if I can find it.

Morris I really sympathise. I'm a natural lefty and decided on a no after much heartache and soul searching .

Pretty much all of my friends up here are very much pro yes. It's left me feeling quite isolated and wondering whether some friendships will ever be the same.

Latte

There is to be a police presence at polls in the central belt anyway and remember that both parties should have representatives there.

I'm hoping that Friday and the following days will be peaceful although we heard reports on a previous thread that Glasgow for example was to allow all night drinking in bars. If that were true I can't decide whether that is an inspired judgement or a terrible mistake.

but doesn't He speak to you all too?

another xpost

Social protection in Scotland is over 1/3rd of our total expenditure. I don't know how we can protect it with the currency plans and likely loss of tax revenues. Would be interested to see if they did produce something.

I don't agree with 'If you are undecided vote anyway'.

I think people need to read read read and make a decision for which they feel is best for the country they live in and if despite reading and trying to engage in the process they really can't, then don't vote.

Roseforme

"Culloden
Poll Tax
Thatcher
Hitler"

How are those 4 things in the same category? Thatcher and poll tax are within living memory; Thatcher is widely hailed as an icon of the current Tory party. Any person in the UK who is influenced by the legacy of Thatcher, and an aversion to it, is making rational decisions.

myroomisatip

"So many questions raised about the £, border controls, EU membership, our armed forces, work permits and so on. It seems crazy to me that a vote is being taken when no one seems to know what the repurcussions will be."

These are things that can be worked out - whatever happens the logistical details of the future are unclear for all of us, everywhere.
You would never not move house because you don't know what day they collect the bins at the new place.

In general, it is a huge mistake, with anything, to make big decisions based on things staying the same. Everything is going to change, always; the only constant is change. Rational decision making is about influencing change. and about making decisions about big things first according to your big values and interests, and putting in whatever detail you need later.

If you (generic "you") don't embrace change, other players will make changes on your behalf that you may not like. The most rational action in most situations is to proceed according to maximising your future influence on the inevitable change that is always coming. Otherwise, other players will be the influential ones, and you may not like what they do

OneNight

"MindReader

Fix anyone who asks with a maniacal gleam while moving slightly closer to them and tell them you're anticipating divine guidance in the polling booth. That should work and you may not even have to ask them for their name and address 'so that we can visit you'. wink"

Yes, that could work what with it being ME and being Royston and all that. I have a touch of the Roystons about me too, see, just 'bastardEnglish' Royston (and Southern at that!) whereas I am in a ScottishRoyston and it aint a happy mix! Thanks for cheering me

Latte - you had to be there to hear the tone etc but had you been it would have left no doubt. Re escalation - we had a meeting with our local Dir for Ed nearly 5 weeks ago now, and are still 'waiting to hear'. (there are a number of other equally hair-raising issues but I wont bore you here). I have already spoken to my MSP, who seems a good egg, but she is a tad busy atm, naturally enough. I will give her a bit of time to recover and get back to her next week if Council continue to ignore...

Ffs - just seen a comment on BBC News live feed saying we should all vote yes because he's is all about the people the no vote is all for big business.

That'll be why those altruistic philanthropists George Mathewson and Brian Soutar are supporting the yes campaign then .

Found it here I'll have to have a read of it.

*yes, not he's

Ffs - just seen a comment on BBC News live feed saying we should all vote yes because he's is all about the people the no vote is all for big business.

But but but the BBC are bias towards no aren't they

I think that a Yes vote will result in at least short to medium term hardship generally which is likely to affect the poor worse.

Of course, it's inevitable.
When a country runs out of money, it's always the poor who suffer first and suffer most. Always has been, always will.

It seems there are many Yes voters who hope it could be different this time, but you can't eat wishes or pay the bills with Salmond's impossible promises.

You would never not move house because you don't know what day they collect the bins at the new place

Funnily enough, most of us think the currency of a country is just a tad more important than that.

Rational decision making is about influencing change. and about making decisions about big things first according to your big values and interests, and putting in whatever detail you need later

Yes and most people think the currency and the economy ARE Big Things. Pesky I know to want to make decisions based on reality and not some Brave New World Dream.

If you (generic "you") don't embrace change, other players will make changes on your behalf that you may not like. The most rational action in most situations is to proceed according to maximising your future influence on the inevitable change that is always coming. Otherwise, other players will be the influential ones, and you may not like what they do

Bugger the fact that no one call explain to you where all the money for Utopia Scotland is coming from?

You would never not move house because you don't know what day they collect the bins at the new place.

vezzie I think Rose was just listing what FB posters were giving as their reasons, but I'm sure she can answer for herself.

proceed according to maximising your future influence - this is a good point, and one which for me means voting No. Then at least we will have some representation in Westminster. We will after all still have to deal with that pesky neighbour of ours.

If you (generic "you") don't embrace change, other players will make changes on your behalf that you may not like. The most rational action in most situations is to proceed according to maximising your future influence on the inevitable change that is always coming.

That's just about the oddest reason for voting Yes that I've ever seen.

"If you don't like what's being proposed by the SNP, you should vote to give them your support anyway" How weird is that?

The best way of maximising your influence is to vote against what you don't like.

I think that a large difficulty with all of this is that we are essentially facing a by-election 'writ large' except that this 'by-election' might scupper a nation.

Many of those people who are voting yes are doing so not out of deep belief in a seceded state but because they have some kind of dissatisfaction with how things currently are and think that a vote for yes will both ease their consciences and that things will go back to normal afterwards. I have heard all of these views expressed.

Things will not go back to 'normal' after Friday though whatever the vote. The difference is that if the vote were to secede any sScotland could be attempting to do it with half the country against the notion at this time and in the face of probable appalling financial and social instability or hardship.

This is simply in the view of many the wrong time the wrong way to go about things and the wrong people at the helm for such an important step and on the basis of inadequate work.

I realise that there are some on this thread who believe profoundly in the Union though.

on a lighter note, the Hindustan Times is headlining with the possibility of a rise in the price of whisky - glad to see it's got its priorities right

Reading through it too Spiritedwolf. Seeing some potentially good but probably very expensive ideas. They also seem to be a bit lacking on solid suggestions and detail - a lot of quite idealistic "it should be positive" type comments.

There's not much I would make a decision on.

Gordon Brown speaking very well in Glasgow atm.
'Scotland doesn't belong to any Politician, it belongs to all of us'.
Amen to that.