Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

[flippinada]

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

Obviously any intolerance or aggression on either side is awful and should be criticised. But generalisations (the entire Yes campaign is just bullying, all No voters are scared etc) are rarely true and often hurtful.

Blimey. Look at us ... all getting on and picking the next cabinet! Scotttish, English, UK - whatever it may be.

I'm not sticking up for Cameron as such but I do think he's had a pretty shit job from the getgo. With no clear majority or mandate and has had to rely on Mr Unreliable aka Clegg, as his wing man and what a shit wing man he's turned out to be.

Cameron has been under attack from all sides - not least the right wing of his own party. And on top of that he's got the UKIP surge to contend with which no other prime minister has ever had to deal with. don't think there's any question UKIP will have an MP at Westminster next election - maybe two, three, more and their presence just gives further leverage to the Conservative party far right.

So he's a right-of-centre conservative prime-minister, in a coalition with a left-of-centre liberal democratic party. He's got the usual Labour party opposition (although Milliband bless him .... no words really ) them uppity Scots , the Eurozone crisis/austerity .... I'd have ended up in the loony bin if I'd been Cameron, and yet he's still there, giving it a go.

So yes, I'll own up to a bit of, not exactly admiration, but I don't think he's quite the Satanic poshboy from hell that he's made out to be. Not everything can be one man's fault. He's not been in the bloody job four years yet and most of what we're seeing playing out now has been going on a lot longer than that, and he can't make a move without having to get Cleggie's lot onside and that must be like wading through treacle.

He also looks like that little wee engine out of Thomas the Tank Engine. Is it Gordon or Percy - no it's Henry!

R.e. the count results - does anyone who knows more about this have any sense of how likely delays will be? My impression is that the times circulating are pretty optimistic.

Haha Team . No thanks! I'll be voting No on Thursday and Labour for further devolved SG in 2016.

I also get the feeling when I look at AS on tv, he is very unhealthy. He looks to me like he has liver trouble or something. He just doesn't look right somehow, - I don't want to make personalised insults on people's appearance, but I'm trying to find some rational explanation for the revulsion I feel when I see him!

Really? I don't like the bloke, but I think he looks bloody good for 60. I had a shock when I looked up his age. He's a bit porky but he seems to have bags of energy, although he's looking a bit drawn and hagard this week, but that's understandable.

When I'm not here I post occasionally on a music forum. It's much smaller than this site and you do tend to "get to know people"

One of the long term members is American but seems to be in the UK regularly. He was in Edinburgh last weekend and posted a long post asking if we really had taken leave of our senses. He was amazed anyone could seriously be contemplating Yes.

and he can't make a move without having to get Cleggie's lot onside and that must be like wading through treacle.

That made me laugh.

Salmond is 60?!

Met him in person a few weeks ago, he doesn't look it...

Fontella I feel drawn and haggard this week and I'm just over a third of his age...

And am also not the FM of Scotland. Honest.

if you think there is no poverty in london then you have never been there! rich and poor people live in really close proximity to each other

they have every right to be independant if they want to be

There has been a lot of damage done. I don't actually know if I can bring myself to speak to a Yes voter for a while if it is a Yes. I posted something about it earlier on a different thread so won't repeat. I just think there will be a huge amount of that. On either side, we can't help how we feel and it won't be all trotting off for EU negotiations first. It needs to be building what is left at home first. There is no foundation.

Oh that settles it then phaedra. Why did we have this massive debate and a referendum when your American friend could have just told us what's what?

Gee whizz.

fontella no doubt about that. It was a rough handover, having to make austerity cuts. Doesn't do much for popularity.

Team Scotland oh calm down

Of course it settles nothing but there have been plenty Yes voters playing " the rest of the world will laugh at us if we don't vote yes" card.

There was one only a few posts back which is what I was responding too.

The weight off Gordon Brown's shoulders as he left 10 Downing Street with his family was palpable. It was definitely our loss more than his.

Back on topic:
More of the Scottish Government/SNP/Alex Salmond trying to silence dissenting voices:

Alex Salmonds Office Personally Pressured Head of St Andrews University

It's not the first instance of academics being given press releases that they are expected to sign - I seem to remember one was released despite the person in question signing or agreeing but I can't remember the details.

It seems to be their modus operandi. How many clarifying statements by people who have said something questioning independence have actually been people's own words?

I can understand that with some folk livingzuid. Not saying I'm not going to talk to any yes voters, but I do have a couple of Yes voting friends who seem to have lost their "is this offensive" filter and just share stuff even though they know friends and family are voting no.

YOu know what. Fantasy time - but imagine it's a no on Thursday and imagine Scotland stays in. Imagine you did elect Gordon Brown, former prime minister of the UK into office as first minister?

Christ on a bike he'd be more than a match for Westminster. He knows all the tricks and shenigans, because he's done the bloody job himself. He'd also have an understanding of some of the difficulties of keeping everyone in the Union happy, while fighting Scotland's corner. He knows all the budget stuff - he's been chancellor of one of the world's biggest economies (and let's face it, economics aren't Mr Salmond's strong point if that white paper is anything to go by).

It could be a very, very interesting fantasy ...

America is generally comfortable with having both an allegience to the US and pride in their home state.

I've been a bit when I heard a couple of American's cheering Scotland on for independence saying what a virtue it is. Given that they are 'independent' in a country of 314million spread throughout 50 states.... while Scotland is 5.3 million people and one 'state' in the UK.

We can be Scottish and British just as they can be Texan/Californian/etc and American.

It would certainly be interesting. Didn't he threaten to return to frontline Scottish politics unless Salmond stopped lying about the NHS or did I imagine that?

Ed Miliband branded a serial murderer by yes supporters during walk about

Can they even hear themselves?
For the record... he wasn't even an MP when there was a vote for the Iraq war and when he was first publicly asked how he would have voted (when he was campaigning for election) he said he would have voted against. Like many Labour MPs.

I can't think what they think they are referring to.

It's very challenging to have respect for a voting process where there has been so much aggression and intimidation. Not passion - I can understand that - but the lack of respect that some have for others. It's extremely disappointing.

In terms of the difference between the ordinary Yes activists and those shouting down opponents with verbal abuse... as someone mentioned happened in Glasgow up thread... I wonder if the band playing were connected with the "Siol nan Gaidheal" or Seed of the Gaels group? I only ask because they were apparently the ones following Jim Murphy around and trying to shout him down and I spotted them outside a local football ground at the weekend (on a makeshift stage entertaining the crowd)... I don't know if they are just active locally to here or if they are all over the place or what there numbers are like, so I'm not sure if they are responsible for all the nastier stuff... or if it 'grassroots' unorganised rabble stuff but...

You know how we keep hearing that Yes is for civic nationalism not ethnic nationalism? Siol nan Gaidheal are in favour of the other sort .

I'm just wondering if that's why the regular Yes activists on here don't recognise the verbal abuse that No folk are experiencing from apparently official looking Yes groups. Keep an eye out for Siol nan Gaidheal t-shirts.

For balance as a yes worker, I have been physically threatened, spat on , egged, called intriguingly ,Papish Scum along with a Sikh colleague, and had my vehicle damaged. Our shop has been vandalised and several mornings per week are spent replacing stolen/damaged YES signs every week since they went up. I am also a witness in a police incident involving a serious assault and 2 instances of criminal damage.
There is a lot of clutching of petticoats going on here, and we really should clutch them in a balanced fashion shouldnt we? Or does that not suit the script?