Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

What about the Yes voters who are keeping themselves to themselves? A lot of friends and family aren't displaying window posters, posting on social media or wearing badges, etc. because they don't see the need.

I can't say I've not been out campaigning, and I do have a window poster and a Yes badge, but I have never been disrespectful to No voters, even those who told me to "shove my leaflet (you can imagine the rest)" and shouted abuse at me for wearing a badge (although the shouting in the street has only started to happen in the last couple of weeks).

There are a lot of undecided and previous No supporters turning to Yes, although I'm sure this is happening the other way too. As has been mentioned on this thread, the actions of others and the campaigns don't influence everyone. The most recent undecided --> Yes person I know spent plenty of time reading articles, literature from both sides, and speaking to people about it before deciding.

I think we can only wait and see what happens after the votes are in. Different people see things different ways, so we'll all have different opinions on which campaign seems to be doing better. :)

And I hope that whatever the outcome you'll see your way to working with others to benefit the country prettybird?

Jim Sillars has quite the high opinion of himself, doesn't he? He doesn't even care that he comes across as an attention seeking, tantruming child.

Roonerspism But Scots are canny and clever. We aren't the successful nation we are because we are hoodwinked by megalomaniacs.We are also measured and reserved. We heed multiple reports and businesses advising when something isn't sensible.

True. That's why, in the main, this campaign has been mostly peaceful. We do have some people who have got completely carried away and made fools of themselves. There are a few people I know now who I think are a bit of idiots, because of the ridiculous things they've said. We all have to go to work the next morning, or next week, and personally I wouldn't want to do so having written a load of emotive tosh on Facebook with the risk of someone I know at work having seen it.

Numanoid this explains the shy no thing better than I can.

I am a shy no, so I understand the mentality. I don't identify with better together, I have been steamrollered by the yes campaign into believing that if I show support for no I am defeatist, unpatriotic and lack a social conscience. There is no incentive for me to come out with my vote, and apart from to my husband I don't discuss it with anyone.

I know there are lots of us about. Because yes is seen as representing social justice and change (erroneously) and no is just boringly pragmatic it is just not seen as as "cool" to vote no.

In the privacy of the booth I think you will find for a lot of people that changes.

Love it Cedric!!

Has this already been linked to? Sorry, I can't keep up.

Like I said - cautiously optimistic.

I think there will be a large increase in the number of spoiled votes which I would regret. (Friends are not in agreement with me on that.)

I think it can go both ways though, cedric. There will be a lot of people, on either side, who don't voice their opinions.
I still don't trust the polls, so I'm just waiting for the result of the vote itself.

It can, but there is a precedent for shy no, as it says in that article.

Would you buy a used car from Salmond? Bloody hell no.

I agree more with the second article, that it's too unpredictable.

Although the point that 15% of No voters can't just have disappeared is interesting. Maybe they haven't, but they may have went to Yes, or undecided.

As an example one colleague of mine has, since the referendum was announced, been a staunch supporter of one side. They stated that they would never change their mind, and encouraged others to vote the same way. A few days ago, they said that they'd though about it, and changed their mind.

I suppose it will happen a lot (each way), perhaps even on the day.

prettybird now I'm no economist, and would never claim to be, but to make this point from Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and no other is highly misleading:

but his argument of the "invisible hand" and "small is beautiful" (Yes, I know that wasn't written by him - but it's the sense of some of his treatise) are interesting

What is more relevant to our present day situation is that he said:-

It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family, never to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to make than to buy...What is prduce in the conduct of every private family, can scarce be folly in that of a great kingdom (1776, Bk IV Ch II).

He is talking about economies of scale and how free trade allows for specialisation, which in turn leads to competitive advantage and consumer welfare through choice.

In other words, its much less competitive and worse for the consumer (substitute citizen) if we all sit in Scotland producing everything for ourselves, rather than accepting someone in England or Wales or Northern Ireland may produce it better and cheaper and faster, while we may produce something else that we are specialised in better.

Would you buy a used car from Salmond? Bloody hell no.

No, but same goes for Cameron, Darling, Miliband... all of them. Politicians are not the most trustworthy of folks.

Interesting articles cedric, thanks for the links. Food for thought.

I'd class myself as a 'shy no'. I don't mind saying it here but I'm a lot more cautious about RL.

No one is resting on their laurels. Not with the stakes this high.

Interesting about the "no" vote being uncool. I'm desperately uncool - without giving away my occupation - and measured and prone to researching everything to the nth degree. It is my personality and generally stands me in good stead. It has got me out of many difficult situations in my life, even if I'm seen as not very impulsive or exciting.

So whilst nothing about me is "cool", I feel my "no" vote is. I'm not easily bought by a salesman politician, I'm not won over by clever campaigning. I don't follow the crowd. I will always stand up to bullies, even if it means I am then bullied myself.

I was very unimpressed by the campaign literature on both sides and shut myself away and read the White Paper and researched each issue carefully. I should add that my gut feel was always no (because as I've said numerous times, nationalism to me is a horrible, divisive doctrine) but I needed to be absolutely sure.

I have always seen my no vote as a break away from the shouting, screaming, braying masses (and they are now doing just that).

The "no" vote is the coolest of all. We are the people who have really, really, really thought about this.

Derailing a bit, but lots of the students who come to my department at the HE institution where I work are going into economics and they're all desperate to take a selfie with the Adam Smith building, as Adam Smith is a big hero.

Then they see it. The Adam Smith building is the ugliest brutalist monstrosity ever. They are v disappointed

I'm with you Rooners but you'll never get the yes camp to understand that mindset. I've given up. I just take the accusations of being scared/ill-read/thick/fearful blah blah and keep on smiling and walking. I especially love the guff about being thick and ill read - as I polish my masters certificate in its frame....

The "no" vote is the coolest of all. We are the people who have really, really, really thought about this.

Why is it okay to say this, but not what TeamScotland said? Nothing against you personally, Roonerspism, but I'm tired, in general, of being told that Yes voters haven't given this as much consideration.

The "scared" one is the best. As if any rational, sane adult wouldn't be slightly fearful of the economic uncertainties facing us.

I think if one wasn't scared, there would be something far wrong.

Numanoid well, yes, you might have given it consideration. I am absolutely baffled that any sensible yes voter could now be ignoring the absolute tide of warnings from independent economists and businesses.

So you have either given it consideration and are willing to take the most almighty gamble, or you simply haven't considered it at all.

Adam Smith is relevant because it his works which were at the foundation of the EU, and he is still quoted and founded upon by those in charge of the EU. And he was Scottish, of course.

prettybird I'm not meaning to single you out, you make some great posts, but in the interests of accuracy, as wonenzuid has already pointed out:

Tell that to Denmark, Luxembourg, Holland, Finland, all of whom seem to survive quite adequately with populations of similar size and similar resources not even mentioning the oil

North and South Holland together I think still have double the population of Denmark and about 40 times that of Luxemburg, but when you take in the Kingdom of the Netherlands, it has a population of 16.5 million, and still gets treated like a small country playing with the big boys on the international stage.

And you would think from the way some people speak (not you personally) that England had no oil itself.

Or you don't understand what those warnings actually mean. I suppose that is a third option.

Salmond gambles in his spare time. I only found that out recently, but wasn't remotely surprised. Although I think even he must be crapping himself right now. He might have to try to calm a lot of markets on Friday morning and work with Cameron to prevent a run on the banks. He ain't getting a currency union, so that means sterlingisation. Even Salmond's clever words can't manage to find several billion sitting around that easily.

I generally like reading everyone's point of view, but I don't like reading that I'm assumed to be misinformed and incapable of understanding certain things (just for being a Yes voter) whilst people are saying they're upset at the same being done to them.

I don't think it's right for either side to be insulting the other, especially since we've all got to live together after the vote.

Salmond is a horse racing fan. Apparently though the small horse racing industry in Scotland is in fear for its future, as their enquiries for funding on independence (currently done by the Levy Board through the UK Government, and there are not even plans or discussions as to any replacement or what funding it will get on independence.

This is played out over a number of industries.