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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref 11. The home of good manners

999 replies

grovel · 14/09/2014 18:37

!0,000 and counting.

OP posts:
Numanoid · 15/09/2014 14:27

I can't believe it's happening on Thursday, it's always seemed such a distant thing until now. Shock

I've a mixture of nerves and excitement.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 14:33

PandPO

Either way, it's not going to be pretty :(

I hope those of us in the rUK can focus on the fact that we are all better off together and that people in Scotland were only doing what they think is best.

Negotiations re 'What Scotland will 'get'' will need to be open, fair and respectful to the fact that we are all still climbing out of a recession, not just Scotland.

OneNight · 15/09/2014 14:33

I know how you feel. I'm just about to go and buy a bottle of whisky. Either way I suspect I'll need it.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 15/09/2014 14:33

If anyone dares read a BBC link, this seems a good outline of what would have to happen on Friday if it was a Yes vote, to stabilise the banks as much as possible.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 15/09/2014 14:36

and interesting that Peston points out:

... to be clear, for all the outrage of Alex Salmond at what he sees as the politically motivated leaking by the Treasury of this migration south, he has known these were the banks' respective intentions for months (because RBS, for one, told him).

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 14:36

This came on the radio earlier, it actually quite got to me :(

This is how I feel.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 15/09/2014 14:37

on Thursday night I need to stay sober - if it's a Yes, I don't want to be sobbing and hungover. Not sure yet if I can face staying up all the way through, or whether I might set an alarm for 4am.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 14:39

Off to a meeting now, back later.

Numanoid · 15/09/2014 14:39

DP has one too, OneNight. I hope the votes are counted quickly!

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 14:43

Freddie - I might opt to sleep on the sofa (no TV in my bedroom) but I don't honestly think we are going to know anything before 10am and probably not anything concrete until after lunch.

Got to run, speak later.

prettybird · 15/09/2014 14:51

You're right - I shouldn't have used the Netherlands in my list of comparable countries. I was doing it in a rush off the top of my head. I could just as easily have said Latvia or Estonia or Ireland.

But you do make an interesting point: you state that the success of the examples I gave is a result of them being part of Benelux or the Nordic countries. Yet noone is claiming that they are not sovereign countries. Unless of course, there is an implication that rUK would deliberately boycott Scotland because of the ill will that has been engendered towards them, to ensure its failure.

In the case of Finland (and Ireland, before you pick me up on that example), countries go through ups and downs. The UK has itself experienced a recession and is still subject to austerity cuts. The UK has also itself had to go to the IMF for a bailout in the 70s - recovered only for Brown to claim he had banished boom and bust Ireland is recovering - and I've not heard any requests from them to rejoin the UK.

I've said before, we each have our own reasons for voting the way we do. I recognise that there will be pain - but I'm prepared to take the risk. I am deeply cynical about the Westminster Government (of whatever colour) and suspect that in 15 50 whatever number of years, once the oil has indeed run out (or is no longer needed Wink), then they will be surprisingly desirous of amenable to a split Hmm. I see that as a risk. I see leaving the EU as a risk.

I see being in control of 100% of our revenues as an opportunity.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 15/09/2014 14:52

How much of what's happened throughout this debate could have been anticipated & avoided?

The thing is, I don't think the SNP majority was really about independence at all. I know that this was pushed fairly quickly afterwards by WM - the 'put up or shut up' stance to force SNP's hand, and I think it's true that even then SNP didn't really think they'd get close to a yes so were keen for the devo max option. I hindsight, I'd say that this wasn't just the failsafe option for SNP, but the failsafe option for the union. Now we all know SNP want independence, yet they got a majority when the opinion polls suggested there wasn't an appetite for independence (certainly not anywhere near what the polls suggest now). The SNP majority was IMO about the discontent with what is happening in politics - it's the same reason UKIP has a higher profile now too. The writing has been on the wall for years, with expenses, austerity, welfare cuts, tuition fees, cutting the 50p tax rate, ATOS, bedroom tax, workfare, flipping homes, making fortunes from tax payer funded homes bought to house MPs & their families. You could list numerous issues that have come up over the years where the perception is that politicians believe they are a 'special case' when compared to the many ordinary people whose votes they depend on.

There has been a huge gamble on both sides - SNP gambling the financial future of iScotland when so much is uncertain & WM gambling the stability of the whole of the UK & the union, by not actually engaging in any kind of debate or discussion over what the concerns of the Scottish electorate are. The thing is, both are likely to lose so much irrespective of the outcome.

We have very different issues in Scotland compared to a massively over populated SE where the concentration of money & talent & expensive property skews the outlook in comparison to the rest of the UK. How can monetary policies really address both sides of that divide fairly or reasonably? HS2 is a prime example - that's designed to help manage the overspill from the saturation point that commutable areas from London cut off from the rest of the UK & barely touches the overall imbalance with how the country (inc Scotland) as a whole should benefit from the redistribution of business to address the unemployment & poverty traps in areas that haven't recovered from the loss of big industries. Even long after thatcher has gone from frontline politics, it's no exaggeration to say her legacy still lingers on many parts of the UK. 20/30 years after she was in power & I still see areas close to me that have remained decimated, with high unemployment, low paid insecure employment. That's a failure of every government since thatcher - the disillusionment with WM is a real & tangible feeling out with the SE (and within it too as posted by quite a few on these threads). The fact is, WM/BT have gambled in ignoring this in the hope that Scotland would 'pipe down' eventually & the momentum would fizzle out, but without doing anything about the many concerns that are bubbling away all over the UK.

Much of the uncertainty has been engineered through the stubborn stances on both sides - WM refusal to address the issues before a referendum & SNP for hammering on despite the lack of detail or certainty because WM refuse to engage in a meaningful debate/discussion. The whole thing could & should have been better managed. Discussions about those issues should have happened between SG & WM, between all Scottish parties & all of the UK parties before the referendum parameters were set & the date confirmed. The failure to do that has left us all staring over a cliff, for both sides because IMO the concerns of everyone involved are valid as far as I'm concerned.

flippinada · 15/09/2014 14:54

Interesting report on the Guardian's live blog:

" Nicola Sturgeon has suggested that yesterday’s anti-BBC demonstration staged by yes supporters was a mistake. At this stage in the campaign they should focus on “not protesting against something but campaigning for something”, she said. She spoke as Alex Salmond backed the protest, describing it as “peaceful and joyous. (See 12.24pm.) "

The emphasis is mine, that's not from the report.

I've got my own feelings about the BBC but agree with the NUJ. There was a banner at the protest clearly Nick Robinson and calling for him to be sacked. Targeting individual journalists in this way smacks of bullying and intimidation - and AS seems happy to condone that.

flippinada · 15/09/2014 14:54

*clearly naming

Fontella · 15/09/2014 14:55

Latte

Nice idea posting a music vid.

Here's one of me all time faves. Seems quite appropriate ....

Numanoid · 15/09/2014 15:01

I'm not sure how I feel about that protest, flippinada. Nick Robinson showed that he is unprofessional, however I wouldn't call for him to be sacked.

squoosh · 15/09/2014 15:03

I didn't like the protest. Government supporting groups demanding journalists be sacked doesn't sound like 'freedom' to me.

WildThong · 15/09/2014 15:05

I've got one, hope link works (on phone)

Kylie Better the Devil You Know

flippinada · 15/09/2014 15:11

I fully appreciate what you're saying Numanoid, I'm not a massive fan of the BBC myself. However I also agree with squoosh.

That AS has been quite open about supporting the protest bothers me a lot.

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/09/2014 15:11

I saw poll results last night that said at the time of the holyrood election only 69% of those who voted snp wanted independence. So it wasn't even a majority of those who voted at the last election who wanted this. A fair number voted snp as a 'not labour or tory 'option by the looks of it.

TeamScotland · 15/09/2014 15:17

Looking forward to Friday when we find out more than Thursday. The pish I've read on here today is staggering Grin. I'm particularly liking the assertion that Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond are bricking it in case they win. Grin Grin Grin

Look around you, no people, it's happening.

squoosh · 15/09/2014 15:18

Well, we'll soon see if it is happening.

Numanoid · 15/09/2014 15:20

I don't like AS much either, flippinada, I don't think he was the best choice to 'front' the Yes campaign. :/

I saw poll results last night that said at the time of the holyrood election only 69% of those who voted snp wanted independence. So it wasn't even a majority of those who voted at the last election who wanted this.

It may not be a completely accurate to look at it that way as many Yes voters I know, although there are a fair few SNP voters amongst them, support the Greens or Labour. There will also be a lot of people who weren't old enough to vote at the time, or chose not to.

Roseformeplease · 15/09/2014 15:23

Do you know what, I actually don't think it is "happening". I think there is an element of hysteria and a bit of a gang thing going on (like a children's gang- not a knife and crime gang) , but I don't think Yes will prevail. I am preparing for the worst, but expecting a good solid No on Friday. Probably 55/45, or even higher.

My evidence?

My gut. Seeing that the economic arguments for staying in the Union are getting through. Knowing that most Scots (and people who live here) are too canny to fall for the bullshit and too careful with money to take the hit in their pockets that comes with a Yes vote.

Also, I think Yes is very strident and that will put people off - all the signs, all the triumphant marches and meetings, it all looks a bit like they think they have won. Salmond talking about his negotiating team. Doesn't go well with those who haven't actually given him any kind of mandate yet.

And, finally, I heard a great story from a friend this weekend. She works with someone who is a No whose twin sister is a Yes. The No friend had decided not to attend a family party because the rest of the family are Yes and she was fed up with it. Not a big occasion, just a get together. One by one they all rang her (not the sister) to tell her that they were No too, but too scared of fighting and arguing with the sister to do anything other than pretend to agree.

Most people don't like argument, or even discussion. Many will sit and nod and vote No. Facing the precipice, I think even some confirmed Yes voters will step back.

cedricsneer · 15/09/2014 15:24

Teamscotland it is that kind of nationalistic crowing and belittling of other people's worries that turned me right off yes - I haven't seen anything like it from the slightly more dignified no camp Sad. It is all a bit jim sillars "come the revolution".

I think you may be surprised when the shy nos come out. Again - look at the bookies odds before you start gloating.

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