Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref 11. The home of good manners

999 replies

grovel · 14/09/2014 18:37

!0,000 and counting.

OP posts:
Fontella · 15/09/2014 12:56

Just found this in regard to those post separation friendly 'negotiations' ....

'International law experts at Dundee University have stated that England and Scotland would face a lengthy dispute over ownership of the North Sea which could last up to ten years at the International Court of Justice, which could favour a more northerly line of border pushing the reserves of the Fulmar field, 300 kms off the Fife coast into English waters.

Land borders are fixed, martime borders are not. Yes campaigners will argue doubt this is all scaremongering by the No campaign.

Suggest you read the paper written by Pieter Bekker. Westminster has been in litigation with Argentina over the Falklands (oil and gas there as well) AND Spain over Gibralter, they will not give up without a fight'

prettybird · 15/09/2014 13:05

I've actually read "The Wealth of Nations" - I took it as holiday reading many years ago when I was more of a nerd Grin

OneNight · 15/09/2014 13:07

Published in 1776?

flippinada · 15/09/2014 13:11

You've read it prettybird? Wow, that's impressive! I haven't, but know quite a lot about him due to my ex being a big Adam Smith fan (and talking about him at length).

Yep, published in 1776.

EarthWindFire · 15/09/2014 13:12

It gets quite dizzying listening to all this, doesn't it? I'll be glad when it's all over.

I think that is something that both sides can agree on Wink

PhaedraIsMyName · 15/09/2014 13:14

Reality there's no point in choosing any of them. My vote is worthless

How on the one hand can you trumpet this glorious reawakening of political engagement and say that?

So basically if you don't get your own way "your vote is worthless"

WildThong · 15/09/2014 13:17

Rooners I can't say how pleased I am that some undecideds are perhaps lurking on this thread. I have been so impressed at the knowledge and thinking by some of my fellow no voters that I wish I knew you in real life and we could meet for a coffee and chat. Measured, intelligent, informed women

Totally agree. Been unwell, off work for ages, feel as if I've made new friends Flowers

Meet up maybe?

OneNight · 15/09/2014 13:18

I think it's more profound than that Phaedra. For many Scots this is the first time they've engaged with the political system in Scotland and they want their effort to mean something. As I've said before and whatever the outcome of Thursday I would hope we can harness those feelings for the future.

EarthWindFire · 15/09/2014 13:18

According to someone I'm now being selfish and should think of the greater good!?

I can feel my heckles rising again Sad

prettybird · 15/09/2014 13:21

Iirc, the edition I read was a Penguin one - so the editorial (which I also read Wink) would have been much later than 1776 Grin

As a magnus opus, you can pretty much take what you want from it - but he was pretty damning of England's role in the colonies and of lazy wealthy lecturers at Oxford (compared to Glasgow), but his argument of the "invisible hand" and "small is beautiful" (Yes, I know that wasn't written by him - but it's the sense of some of his treatise) are interesting.

This is me dragging up the dregs of my recollections! :)

PhaedraIsMyName · 15/09/2014 13:21

OneNight you're being more charitable than me then . It sounded more like throwing your toys out of the pram.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 13:22

It is worrying that so many of the 'yes' voters are still under the (AS driven) illusion that if they get independence it will be them driving the negotiations, that they believe they will be able to have exactly what they want and none of the resonsibility.

That Scotland wont be run by men in grey suits shouting the odds. Do they really, really think that Scottish Parliament will be a wee chat all tea & biscuits?

It is also worrying that they seem to think there will be an endless pot of money to draw from - that all of AS's promises will be made good (you have to laugh) and that any that do, wont come at a cost.

Independence at any cost complete and utter blind optimism, based not on fact, but on a 'fuck you westminster' feeling. It is scary, it's scary for all of us, because division will cost all of us, in administration costs if nothing else, and because half of Scotland will be 'thrown to the dogs' having to live with this when they didn't want it. People who are Proud to be Scottish, delighted to be United

OneNight · 15/09/2014 13:23

You put us all to shame even if it were to be 'dregs'. My own copy has languished downstairs these many years. Blush

flippinada · 15/09/2014 13:25

I see Wealth of Nations is available for free on Kindle - I'm goign to download it and have a look.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 13:26

EarthWindFire - :( I haven't been on any of the other threads today.

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/09/2014 13:29

Earth, I consider a no vote to be for the greater good. Many yes voters are unwilling to consider the economic realities and hardships that Scotland is highly likely to face in the event of a yes vote. Those hardships will hit the poorest, hardest. Idealism and hope won't keep food on the table or a roof over people's head. The rich will be fine -they'll be able to leave if it all goes to shit. The poorest will be left to absorb cuts of a scale that will make the tories look gentle. A no vote is also a vote to keep working against social injustice across the UK rather than to only focus on people north of an arbitrary line.

A no vote is not selfish. It's a vote to keep working to protect the poorest in Scotland and the UK without getting caught up in nationalism and baseless optimism.

livingzuid · 15/09/2014 13:34

*...and some on here have argued that it's nationalist propaganda to claim that No has said "we're too wee and too poor"? confused

Tell that to Denmark, Luxembourg, Holland, Finland, all of whom seem to survive quite adequately with populations of similar size and similar resources not even mentioning the oil*

It must be nationalist propoganda because I can't see anyone in the No camp coming up with such an unpleasant phrase. Scotland's population is too small to support the plans and the desire of a Yes campaign, and it cannot compete or promote itself on the world stage in the same manner it does right now.I am not the only poster to have pointed that out. It doesn't mean the people in it are shit. At no point have I said that so kindly stop twisting my words.

The problem is the Yes campaign has sold a vision to people which I have not seen any concrete evidence for, despite asking. It has preyed on some of the most vulnerable in society and instead of promising the holy land it is this group who will be the worse affected. What I have seen for pro independence in no way justifies the utter pain that the whole country will go through. It is that blatant manipulation and outright lying that makes me so angry more than anything else, that peoples lives will get worse, not better. I can leave. They can't.

But anyway, moving onto the demographics of various countries you have listed above. Off the top of my head:

The Netherlands has a population of 16 million so is not comparable. Luxembourg is part of a the Benelux region, an area which sees much cooperation between the Netherlands and also Belgium, encouraging trading and growth between the three to offset the fact they are smaller nations. As well as being a tax haven and long established world financial centre, Luxembourg also plays host to several very large EU departments and even has a rather enormous EU village on the outskirts of the city. Its proximity right in the middle of Europe also makes it an ideal location for large business to base their headquarters there, particularly combined with the fact that all of the population speak at least two languages fluently, sometimes up to four. Belgium also has the benefit of being able to trade with France and the Netherlands and the UK given its location, along with speaking three languages fluently and an exceedingly large port which works collaboratively with the world's third largest port in Rotterdam. Ditto the Netherlands as many products are marketed in Dutch and French. In addition, all three countries have been doing their trade agreements and established relationships for an awfully long time.

Scotland has none of the above. Aside from the rUK as its main trading partner. And with the division in society that Belgium has. Who could forget the eighteen months or however long it was it took them to get a prime minister because the sides were so divided?

Denmark. It certainly is comparable in population size. It also has a longstanding agreement as part of the Nordic area of countries and cooperation agreements, is a fully fledged member of the EU, and has Germany as a trading partner on its doorstep, similar to the Netherlands. Its citizens speak two or three languages fluently so they are able to do business across much of the EU with ease. It also has a terrible problem with brain drain being smaller.

Finland. What about negatives because it is EU and Nordic of course. But what an example for a small country with a huge neighbor lurking on your back door. Now that Nokia has gone, the economy has plummeted. I think it went back into recession earlier this year. And it is massively dependent on Russia. I don't think I need to elaborate. But if you don't believe me, perhaps this article from the Wall Street Journal is a credible enough source. online.wsj.com/articles/finland-reduces-economic-growth-forecast-for-2014-1403087681

Scotland will be isolated from the EU and isolated from the remainder of the UK. The only language the majority of people speak is English. It is not in a competitive place geographically to encourage trade and will take a very long time to negotiate agreements with all 28 of the EU countries. The territory that oil sits on might be Scottish but it is owned by foreign companies. And I repeat, why should one part of the country have to bear the brunt for everyone else? The whole oil argument is boring beyond belief.

By the way, my husband is Dutch and I lived there for many years, working with colleagues from all over Europe including Denmark. So let's see what other countries you can come up with instead shall we that can be compared as a viable proposition to a newly independent Scotland? I could tell you all about the problems smaller countries face, both in the EU and globally, and why that is also informing my decision to vote No. Not that you'd listen.

WildThong · 15/09/2014 13:36

A no vote is not selfish. It's a vote to keep working to protect the poorest in Scotland and the UK without getting caught up in nationalism and baseless optimism This in spades!

I have to avoid that other thread earth, I'm so done with all the copied and pasted/parrot shite from Facebook propaganda. Hollow and worthless. No matter what you try to explain or offer evidence you are battering your head against a brick wall.

*#Scottish, British and Proud

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 13:46

Well said statchall

livingzuid · 15/09/2014 13:57

Yes I wondered about Salmond and Sturgeon. If I were them I'd be bricking it. I think I saw a report a week ago that said they were only expecting a 20-30% yes and they hadn't planned for this.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 15/09/2014 14:02

livingzuid - very interesting and does make a complete mockery of them all being held up as comparisions - by people who should know better.

CoreyTrevorLahey · 15/09/2014 14:05

Nationalism is no friend of socialism, however "nicely" you dress it.

I agree, Rooners. Nationalism has never sat well with me, ever. I know loads of very intelligent, kind, socially-minded SNP voters (most of my friends are Yes) but I still can't reconcile myself with nationalism. I was so grateful when the Green Yes campaign gained momentum but if (hopefully when) Scotland becomes independent in the future, the Yes campaign from the start can have the backing of multiple voices.

I agree that the Better Together campaign is dire

Completely agree, flippinada. When I reached my decision to vote no, on this occasion, it had nothing to do with BT. They've alienated me so much. I felt quite sad over the weekend - all my friends at the Yes parties in Buchanan St and Kelvingrove Park, and there was nothing similar that I would have felt good about attending. A horrendously bad PR exercise.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 15/09/2014 14:09

Whatever the vote outcome so much work will need to be done in this country to bring people together again

You're absolutely right - which is why it worries me that, while many No voters stress the importance of addressing issues together, very many Yes supporters (on here and elsewhere) appear to think only about Scotland

We see it again and again: Scotland wants / expects / is entitled to / will get this and that. After a Yes vote some of that would be fair enough, since there'd then be no obligation to consider the rest of us in the long term ... but I can't see Scots being happy if rUK takes the same approach

I also struggle to imagine Yes voters taking a more cooperative attitude if the "soveriegn will" of the Scots turns out to be continuing with the union, but time will tell I guess

WildThong · 15/09/2014 14:20

corey
I'm actually disappointed that Patrick Harvey joined the independence campaign. I appreciate that this campaign is not just an SNP matter, but I think he has been naive if he thinks anything he stands for will mean one iota to the separatist juggernaut should they win on Thursday.

flippinada · 15/09/2014 14:22

Corey

Agree. The better together campaign hasn't impacted on my no decision at all (which has only been reached recently).

I've come to it after reading the news, reading around the issues, looking at the white paper and doing a bit of research.