Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

Chelsy what did you do about the oresent government who have brought millions of people into negative equity with their stupid lending policies?

You are afraid for your life savings? Don't bother,they have already been earmarked to cover your care costs when you are in your old age.

And should you ever need legal aid or any other means tested benefit well that's not going to happen either unless you use your savings first.

How is this thread related to your work btw?

...and a lot of paranoia

PrettyBird - for me,

• When the Scottish people know what they are voting for, not the unrealistic utopia AS is portraying.

• When the vast majority want it (knowing what they will actually be getting in terms of currency, debt, net oil revenue), not when only 1% more want it than don't and that 'more than the 1% margin' are voting on empty promises.

I don't know what you would object to that book - it was directly relevant to the discussion at the time and is an academic work on the subject, not made up by the supporters of the Yes campaign. FWIW, I'd mentioned it many threads ago (and only linked to it this time 'cos of the specifics of the discussion) as dh had said that if what had been done what was suggested when he studied it (late 70s/early 80s), which was proper federalism, then the independence movement would have been killed stone dead.

if not now, when perhaps when it's a bit better thought through than the discredited information we were presented with?

I did try to show tongue in cheek by the winks. Have a good day!

DD Chelsy what did you do about the oresent government who have brought millions of people into negative equity with their stupid lending policies?

I never said that. I'm afraid you have confused me with someone else.

I would be extremely angry indeed if Scottish independence resulted in the devaluation of my home. You are right to bring the term negative equity into it, particularly as this has happened in the two small independent countries located near to Scotland, Ireland and Iceland.

You are afraid for your life savings? Don't bother,they have already been earmarked to cover your care costs when you are in your old age.

I didn't say that either. I haven't got any life savings. I have a house and a pension. And by the way, they have also been earmarked to cover your care costs in your old age, so you better be nicer to your fellow citizens, before you drive them out.

Living down south I would like to ask those up in Scotland a question. My parents (the only family left up in Scotland) say everyone they know is voting no so how can the polls be so split? I'd be interested to hear the perspective of others.

fontella
Thanks for that link. It's frightening.
Not because of its numbers, but because it will not be seen by the majority of Yes voters who are being led like lambs to the slaughter.

Why is DD talking to me as though I'm some dim-witted imbecile?

lem73 no-one really understands that, but it seems to quite a divisive vote, on geographical terms at least. The Yes support seems greater in post-industrial parts of the Central Belt. And it is said that Yes supporters tend to be more vocal.

lem you can read it on here. There are loads of people who think a yes vote is a super positive thing for democracy and Scotland, and will not be dissuaded by "naysayers".

It's turned into a "movement" and is very exciting and hopeful if you buy into it.

I'm not so active on here, but have been very active on FB. I have the time to do it at the moment as I have been signed off work for two weeks. I'm too ill to be able to get out or get on with the painting etc that needs to be done in the house, but not ill enough to not be able to post online.

I'm not sure I will ever be a proper yes, but I have certainly said I could envisage being more supportive in a different situation. For me not now is not these policies not these false promises, not with economics that don't add up, and not with this level of divisiveness. There are a fair number of people voting yes who do believe that they will get the Scotland they're being promised -I don't mean the fundamental yes voters but the ones who have been convinced by things which are in all likelihood undeliverable. I could easily see a situation where if it squeaks through as a yes, by the time we are actually independent and the realities of our settlement are clear there will be a majority opposed. I don't think where we are right now is a good basis for a separate country.

I'm imagining AS trying to negotiate with the European Commission. "So, Mr Salmond, what guarantees on credit history that you can meet EMF controls on stability for two years and our other requirements before joining the Eurozone?" AS: "Well, as we say back home, forget about the detail, its all about the sentiment, so just let us in and I'll give you a nice wee bag of sweeties under the table".

I think there could have been a much better way of doing this. The legislation, institutions and issues could have been resolved by the side wishing to change the status quo before the Referendum. Scotland could have had 10 years of good governance and demonstrable excellent practice behind it. It hasn't happened and so its all meant to proceed on the what if. You wouldn't buy many things on that basis, and it still for me doesn't get round the issue of being part of a large powerful country and losing all that to be part of a small, less important one, dependent on its neighbours.

Most countries are tying to enter into agreements and treaties to join up with other countries. Doing the opposite at the tail end of a recession doesn't make sense to me.

*fontella
Thanks for that link. It's frightening.
Not because of its numbers, but because it will not be seen by the majority of Yes voters who are being led like lambs to the slaughter.:

You're welcome Sally.

This is what I don't understand. The posters who have come on here this morning making personal attacks and snide remarks but who seem completely uninterested in looking into Salmond's utopian claims regarding Scotland's wealth, and how rich it's going to be, and how everyone is going to prosper.

Instead of having personal pops at people, start doing a bit of reading and research. Start questioning your first minister's version of independence, start listening to some alternative viewpoints instead of dismissing them as scaremongering and accusing everyone of bias and conspiracy. It's the economics that should be of primary concern but all I see is 'Scotland will be one of the richest countries in the world' and how great it's going to be once its thrown off the shackles of the rest of the UK and will have all this lovely oil money to spend.

I'm sure I'll get criticised for saying that now!

Pretty bird - i will say I don't think I'd ever actively vote for independence but I wholly understand why people want it. In response to the when question - when there are answers to some key questions would be a good start, this all seems too rushed, too poorly thought out, too much based on sentiment than solid economic standing. I think AS has done himself no favours by being so arrogant in his approaches (yes there is huge arrogance from BT too) that he is alienating the people he needs to work together with. The whole CU is a prime example. Perhaps it was on the best interests of both Scotland and rUK but his whole "we want therefore we get" turns people against you and it now looks like negotiations might not be quite as amicable as AS suggests.

Plus I think starting out life as an independent country where almost half of the electorate is opposed to it is not a solid foundation, there is already a huge divide, things have been said and done on both sides that can't be undone or unsaid on Friday. A lot of work needs to be done to bring both sides together. I always thought a country gaining independence would be the scenes of widespread jubilation and happiness, it won't be, there will be pockets of it but there will also be a huge number of people very unhappy

You complain of being talked to like some dim-witted imbecile chelsy but are happy to post your daft version of the First Minister's negotiations with the EC.

Word is AS has phoned his very few contacts in Europe, well one in total, trying to get some kind of statement on Scottish accession in the event of independence that he can use this week before the Referendum to allay people's fears. And failed.

The reason why no one can support the SNP position on iScotland's accession to Europe is because it is indefensible. It is really depressing to see how many people remain misinformed on this.

The EU is a creation of international treaty between its member states. For iScotland to become a member instantly on independence day, the treaties would have to be amended. That, as is the case with all treaties unless the express otherwise, has to be done with the consent of all parties. This is as per the legal advice that the UK government got, and its what various members of the EC have said.

Of course, it is claimed that these people are Cameron's mates, and the legal advice should be disregarded on the basis that he who pays the piper calls the tune. It struck me recently that if the SNP disagreed with this advice, they could have gone to the European Court of Justice for a declaratory judgment. I wonder why they haven't.

All these negotiations with the UK, EU and NATO....

What are we going to have to give up to get what we already have as part of the UK?

What do we gain? We already have a currency union, eu membership and NATO membership.

(I appreciate that my post from overnight may have been overlooked, but there are several unaddressed points there too... )

I'm not going to get distracted from the content of this thread and try and justify why I'm on it. I'm annoyed with myself that I'm not getting much done with my art projects at the moment, but I am distracted by my thoughts about the referendum and at least here I can share those thoughts with others and hear their opinions. I'm not sure I'll get much done till the result is in.

WM has infantilised - the Scottish people Scone?

This notion of voting for independence making us more 'responsible' and 'confident' is meaningless. How is a country of 5.3 million voting for a government any more 'responsible' than a country of 60 million voting for a government?

Voting doesn't make you responsible. I'm sorry to appear to be confrontational, but it's utter rubbish to claim that we will be behaving more responsibly by having our own government. It will only be a matter of time before the Holyrood government is blamed for 'infantilising' us.

There is no evidence of a Scottish appetite for responsible behaviour. The yes voters who admit that there would be hard times seem to be implying heavier taxation but nothing about asking individual people to do their bit for the good of society. Walk or cycle instead of damaging the roads more with excessive car use, be neighbourly and look after each other, pick up your litter and chewing gum instead of complaining about the state of the streets costing the taxpayer needless money in cleaning them, pay up if you've been admitted to A+E as a result of repeated binge drinking. Better still, change the culture of celebrating drunkenness and scotch pies. You can jiggle the tax system around as much as you like - I'm all for asking for a bigger contribution from very highly paid/wealthy individuals -but we all need to do our bit. There is no mention of that from the yes campaign. And no mention of rewarding all those individuals who make a massive contribution to their communities by caring for their neighbours, relatives, children instead of trying to offload them on to the state.

If the yes campaign had a bit more rhetoric about acting responsibly to have a better society instead of just taking responsibility for ourselves I'd have more sympathy. We would have more to spend on the vulnerable and deprived members of society.

Endless complaining about government policies and structures will achieve nothing. Use your energy to do something positive instead of thinking how best to avoid sharing our oil wealth.

I'm annoyed with myself I'm not getting more work done Wolf. I've also got to get all my son's stuff washed, sorted and packed up for his first year Uni this week. Can't leave it all to him - he's lovely but useless. He'll just shove a load of screwed up rags into a suitcase and call it 'packing'.

I've really got to get on and get some work done now so I am going to have to discipline myself to stay away from this thread and try and put the Scottish referendum out of my mind.

Hopefully I'll be able to check back in at lunchtime to catch up with all the posts.

**Livingzuid - it's a few pages ago now but thanks for your summary post last night. Sums up my position very well too

Chelsy you must have a very short memory, your post at 9:28 said exactly that, in fact you subdivided the post helpfully into a, b and c.