Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

I'm glad you're feeling a little better EWF.

Thank you OneNight

We said independence david not underpants

Latte

He looked a bit put out. In my defence, he was wearing a rather old jumper, and didn't look particularly important.

celticlass

Some of you seem to spend a huge amount of time on these type of threads. Not very healthy IMHO. Might be better to take a break.

Some of us may not actually be very healthy I'm afraid. Are you suggesting that we should turn over in bed and not engage in the discussion process?

Toad - tbf - he doesn't look much more 'important' in a suit

OneNight don't let stupid people bother you, they aren't worth the energy.

Bless him, I doubt he can even spell Scotland let alone point it out on a map

And you call some of the posters on this thread mean girls?

It's been repeated ad nauseum that one of the reasons why some of the Yes voters are making their choice is because they gave a different perception of the relative risk and reward. I think that's why after venturing on to these threads, they recognise that it's not worth trying to get the No voters to change their view. they too have lives and some of them are out campaigning on the doorsteps It's insulting to say that they think it will be a "land of milk & honey".

I know in Real Life 8 MNers who are active Yes voters - all intelligent ladies who have thought through their reasons. Some but not all have put their heads above the parapet on one or more of these threads (or related ones). I have met in Real Life 3 MN no voters. I respect their reasons. The other MNer I'm friends with I'm not sure which way she's voting as it's not come up (which reminds me, we keep on meaning to arrange lunch! ).

prettybird/celtic I do wonder when some of the contributors to this thread get some sleep/other stuff done

Celtic Some of you seem to spend a huge amount of time on these type of threads. Not very healthy IMHO. Might be better to take a break.

Its a fair point. I work part time and don't post when I'm at work, obviously. When I was at work last week and didn't post, some posters rather strangely tried to claim it was because I was posting under another name. It was all very odd.

But I post because (a) I have a vested interest in my life's savings and home being lost, (2) its related to my job in some areas and (3) I believe in standing up for what is right and not being walked over, as too many decent, quiet people are in this debate.

Fontenella thank you. Always rely on and trust your own instincts :-)

The yes voter I referred to blaming WM for closing vthe Astley Ainslie.

Celticlass you speak for the whole of Wales do you? Oddly the Welsh people I know think Scotland has taken leave of its senses

Some of the no voters are out too Prettybird

celticlass Maybe some people are on these threads a lot because they have a lot of thoughts or feelings about if but don't have many people to discuss it with, or feel safer discussing with relative strangers without fearing the arguments and potential fall out if that friend or relative is on the other side. It's a big thing for many, and it's not especially easy to switch off from. But it's nice to know that we're not healthy. Thanks for that

Go and arrange it then! It's all too easy to let friendships wither.

I respect the views of the committed No voters (very eloquently expressed on here). What I don't understand is those people who say, "I'd like Scotland to be independent and maybe one day but not now......" If not now, when?

....when the oil has indeed run out?

(Not because I think oil is a panacea but that it is a useful buffer for what will be inevitable start-up costs and issues - something which many newly independent countries didn't have).

Another Scottish born but no longer living there. Thank you for the information and level of debate on these wonderful threads.
Am off to Paris on Friday for the weekend - my daughter said - 'you're not going to spoil it by crying all weekend if they vote yes are you?'
I find the whole anti - English hostility so depressing. It feels as if the rest of the world is rent with hatred, division and hostility and here we are, busily cultivating it within the UK. Can't express my feelings any better than has been quoted upthread:
As an Englishman without a vote, I today have the same feeling of powerlessness and dread as I had the week before the Iraq war. I knew it was wrong. I knew it would be disastrous. But there was nothing I could do to stop it.

That post was to prettybird.

Word is AS has phoned his very few contacts in Europe, well one in total, trying to get some kind of statement on Scottish accession in the event of independence that he can use this week before the Referendum to allay people's fears. And failed.

In many ways, he and NS's unpleasant manner is a result of being constantly defensive as they are in the position caused by this Referendum of not before being fully prepared. Now, that is their fault as they have had time to prepare better, but have thought that skirting over the main issues would somehow just do instead.

prettybird/celtic I do wonder when some of the contributors to this thread get some sleep/other stuff done

I can answer this one... I never get more than 4 hours sleep due to my disability. Due to said disability I can't do a lot during the day as I am stuck indoors as unable to go out on my own.

Centre for Policy Studies have just published a report:

The £13.8 billion hole in the Scottish Budget

North Sea revenue for the Scottish government would fall from £10.1bn in 2011-12 (but only £5.5bn in 2013-14) to £3.7bn in 2016-17, some £3.2bn adrift of the £6.9bn predicted by the “yes” campaign.

The probable flight of a large proportion of the financial services sector from Scotland – as already indicated by this week in the announcements by RBD, Lloyds, Clydesdale and Standard Life – could leave 2016-17 ex-North Sea revenues (of £47.7bn) about £9.2bn lower than has been forecast by advocates of independence (£57.3bn).

The rising cost of public sector pensions would be likely to impose significant pressures on a Scottish budget already straitened by declining oil revenues and the probable haemorrhaging of tax revenues from financial services. The impact is estimated at £1.1 billion in 2015-16.

Together, omission of these three factors results in a severe understatement of independence risk, both to Scots in general and to public sector workers and retirees in particular.

The cumulative impact of these three risks on Scottish government revenues would be £13.8bn in 2015-16. Total government revenues could be £50.4bn, far below the “yes” campaign’s own estimate (£64.2bn) and far lower, too, than the £63.3bn that Scotland is expected to spend in that year.

Full pdf. of the report can be downloaded here:

www.cps.org.uk/publications/reports/the-13-8-billion-hole-in-the-scottish-budget/

prettybird I wasn't feeling the respect when you linked to a book on Internal Colonialism yesterday.

More a sense that perhaps I need to Amazon Prime it and get my self-denunciation speech ready for Friday .

BTW - I don't as far as I am aware know any of the Yes voters who are currently contributing to these threads.

Of the No voters, one has contributed and I've not seen the other two on any of these threads (as far as I am aware - 10,000 plus posts is a lot to trawl through! ).

prettybird/celtic I do wonder when some of the contributors to this thread get some sleep/other stuff done

I'm self-employed. Work at home on the computer all day long (and sometimes into the night) so can nip in and out of forums when I like really.

The David Beckham is too stupid to have an oponion jibes are really not showing those posters in a good light.

EarthWind, Take care.

There are definitely some folk with empathy bypass around.

but political debate does not need to be so aggressive and unpleasant. That is the way that Westminster functions and the perpetual sense of confrontation does not work well. It is also, in my opinion, why so many women are put off engaging in politics and I would therefore hope for more positive approach on Mumsnet!

Not sure who originally posted this but I agree with the first part but not the second. It is pure stereotyping to think that women should not and cannot be aggressive. Many fields are full of aggressive women. I should think most women have the sense to put off or not be put off something by more substantive issues, and not by what stereotypes people would like to fit them into.

I think you are confusing polite and possibly disdainful, critical and discerning with aggressive. It does seem to be the way the SNP functions and I cannot imagine how they hope to progress in Europe, which generally operates under a much more formal and polite Western-Rhenish form of negotiation which is entirely alien to the approach of the AS school.