Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

Well, part of the reason is that people outside Scotland who have expressed an opinion have been very firmly told that it is none of their business. They have been told this so firmly that even senior politicians like Cameron have kept their noses out of it. I am sure they would rather have got stuck right in.

But the truth is that they - and we - do have a view and, late as it is, it seems that many north of the border are glad to hear us expressing it. And generally it is that Scotland is a valued member of the Union, not a cash cow or a money sink, and that it need not be in any "box", and in fact isn't anyway.

It's a tad insulting to pipe up now. It's really really insulting to have Cameron, Clegg and his cronies constantly reminding us that's it's a referendum, not an election, that we are having.

Why is it. We have seen on these threads that people think if it doesn't work then Scotland can rejoin rUK. It IS a one time only deal.

Font - I don't think anyone here would disagree with the notion that the wider UK would be better off with Scotland staying in it's box. Thats why you don't get a vote.

These sorts of comments will alienate rUK.

but political debate does not need to be so aggressive and unpleasant. That is the way that Westminster functions and the perpetual sense of confrontation does not work well. It is also, in my opinion, why so many women are put off engaging in politics and I would therefore hope for more positive approach on Mumsnet!

It is also the way the SNP function or did I miss the threats by Sillars? Or Salmond's thundering from the pulpit? This continual talk of Westminster being the big bad evil is childish and shortsighted. If you have worked as much as you have said you do with the EU you would know this is not how decisions were made.

As for women being put off politics, well there is nothing like a bit of misogyny towards your own sex is there?

On not one point have you offered what I consider any rational argument. There are gaping holes in your dialogue. Debating nicely and being distasteful - I think you completely fail to grasp how strongly many of the no voters feel about leaving the union and our belief that there is something fundamentally flawed with the Yes campaign. Come a Yes vote on Friday many millions of people are not going to shrug and say 'oh well'. A no vote leaves room for negotiation. A Yes vote is no going back. Lots of us never wanted to go there in the first place.

You are jeopardising everything I hold dear and putting the futures of millions of people at risk north and south of the border. For what I really don't know. And that is the saddest thing about it, the division in society as a result. You are living in lala land if you think I am being rude when I am simply arguing back your points. I'm the tip of the iceberg to what you'll experience in future.

So WM is argumentative and non - cooperative but negotiations with them will be a doddle to be achieved in 18 months? Negotiations conducted by a man whose style is to hector and bully until he gets his own way. Well that will go well won't it?

Sorry you find it a 'tad insulting' Ffallada. Not much I can do about I'm afraid.

And it's hardly surprising that Scots have been talking about it for THREE YEARS as it relates directly to you. Don't wish to be rude or anything, but Scotland isn't the centre of the universe you know. The rest of us have our own lives, families, jobs and localities to concern ourselves with. We have other things to think about - not just Scotland. As we have no vote, and have absolutely no say in the outcome, we are mere spectators to what is happening in Scotland, and completely powerless in terms of what is happening up there.

Therefore it's not something that has figured highly on our list of things to think about I'm afraid - sorry about that, but I can see why it would be a lot higher up on the agenda for you Scots.

As most here seem to have welcomed my contribution and the contribution of other non-Scots to this debate, albeit a 'tad' late in the day for your liking, I will carry on posting if that's alright with you.

And as for 'Cameron, Clegg and his cronies' I've made not a single mention of any of them in any of my posts, so I'm not quite sure why you decide to lump them in to your criticism of me and my fellow Brits?

And and that note, I'll be off as I have my own life, work, family and so on to think about. A living to earn, a daughter to get to college, a son to pack off to his Welsh uni at the end of the week, a mother with Alzheimers I need to get to her daycare centre. All that is going to carry on whichever way Scotland votes on Thursday.

A lot of us (some 600,000) have a vested interest in the outcome on Thursday. Those of us who committed the heinous crime of upping sticks and moving from Scotland to rUK.
That we should be allowed to vote has been totally ignored.
I have been very annoyed about this, however, resigned now, but we are entitled to be interested and to at least join the debate.
The remainder of rUK should not have been left out either as surely the break up of this union is of interest to them too!
It's not unreasonable for David Beckham to have an opinion - I think a lot of the yes campaign do not realise the effect a yes vote would have on the rest of us and I think that is one of the reasons I would (probably) vote no on Thursday if I had been allowed to.
Thanks Alex for ignoring me.

EarthWindFire I'm glad you got a bit of sleep and are feeling a bit better this morning

Scone - you really are a Yes at any cost poster/voter. No amount of information or commonsense is going to change your mind is it?

Seligman If the cost of failure is high, optimism is the wrong strategy

Bugger the actual facts.

Well, I bowed out of these threads days ago. Checked in again on Friday night and realised why I left to begin with.
Fontela , I'm a bit intrigued. I live in Wales not welsh though,- but I have friends who are welsh speakers, send their children to Welsh schools, and generally see themselves as Welsh before anything else, ( just like you say you do) Not one of them

would be belittling another counties desire for Independence, but are in fact. cheering them on. I think bring Welsh they realise what it's like to be shat on from a great height from an English government who's pretty contemptuous of Wales and the Welsh. Your posts don't ring through for me at all. You seem like your're desperately trying to be a part of the mean girls gang on this thread.
Bizzare..

Scone

but political debate does not need to be so aggressive and unpleasant. That is the way that Westminster functions and the perpetual sense of confrontation does not work well

Thank you so much for the laugh this morning

It is the way politicians function. It is hilarious that you think it doesn't/wont happen if there is a 'yes' vote

No it isn't. Have you ever met any politicians? Out of the zoo, so to speak?

Your posts don't ring through for me at all. You seem like your're desperately trying to be a part of the mean girls gang on this thread.

Oh please. I have friends and family in both England and Wales (who are a Welsh) and they aren't cheering anything on.

Peoples posts may not ring true for you but it doesn't mean they don't for many others.

Thank you Latte

Ah, I have had a laugh about David Beckam though. Bless him, I doubt he can even spell Scotland let alone point it out on a map. Right, I'm off to work. Some of you seem to spend a huge amount of time on these type of threads. Not very healthy IMHO. Might be better to take a break.

she works in NHS and doesn't realise it is fully devolved

The NHS in Scotland cannot be fully devolved until the Scottish government gets to set the budget. Currently the Scottish government has to work with the budget that Westminster decides.

Yes Toad plenty thanks :) Even in NZ! Fancy that. Actually having experience - who'd have thunk it hey.

Thanks for that sconequeen.

You said

Yes, I've see the point about needing to have a substantial surplus to enter into a currency union. If it proves to be correct, it would have to affect the final decision as to whether to go for that option or not. Nothing is set in stone yet.

If you can't go for the option of a currency union, could you tell us what you believe any other options are and how sScotland could organise them?

OK, you win on the NZ front. I met Gerry Brownlee once and asked him who he was.

I doubt he can even spell Scotland let alone point it out on a map.

I don't find comments like this funny. Plenty of people have children who struggle with literacy, its not the punchline of a joke. It's pretty snobbish to jeer just because someone was successful at something that doesn't require them to be an intellectual.

Totally off topic but I don't think we should let things like this slide.

TeamScotland - and of course, if there is a 'yes' vote, the money is going to grow on the trees instead.

It's extremely negative isn't it?

The joke's on his detractors anyway. He's bloody rich, and has become so by doing something that he enjoys and by bringing happiness to thousands of people.

Fontela , I'm a bit intrigued. I live in Wales not welsh though,- but I have friends who are welsh speakers, send their children to Welsh schools, and generally see themselves as Welsh before anything else, ( just like you say you do) Not one of them would be belittling another counties desire for Independence, but are in fact. cheering them on. I think bring Welsh they realise what it's like to be shat on from a great height from an English government who's pretty contemptuous of Wales and the Welsh. Your posts don't ring through for me at all. You seem like your're desperately trying to be a part of the mean girls gang on this thread. Bizzare.

WTF are you on about?

I'm not desperately trying to be part of anything. What 'mean girls' gang? The only meanness I've seen is coming from you and the previous poster who jumped on me this morning?

I can't speak for your Welsh friends and they can't speak for me, but I can tell you if you know anything about Wales - you will know there is no desire for independence amongst the overwhelming majority of the Welsh populace, and last time i looked majority rules, as it will in Scotland on Thursday. Plaid has just three MPs from all Welsh constituencies and only 11 out of 60 seats in the Welsh Assembly. Whether you think Wales has been shat on the English is your opinion. You don't speak for me not plenty of my fellow Welsh men and women, so respectfully I suggest you give it a rest. This is a thread about the 'Scottish' referendum and as another poster so succintly told me yesterday, my Welshness is 'neither here nor there'.

And nowhere - nowhere have I 'belittled another country's desire for independence'. My problem with it is that the economic foundation on which that independence will be based, in my opinion, has more holes in it than a pair of fishnet tights. My problem with it, is that 50% of the people of Scotland don't have that 'desire' as evidenced by the polls and the posters here, but are going to have to go along with it, regardless of how they think and feel. My problem with it, is that the repercussions for the rest of us living in the UK - all 60 million of us - are going to be enormous and it's based on a crock of utopian nonsense - in my opinion, and clearly in the opinion of a hell of a lot of Scottish voters as well given the closeness of the polls.

I couldn't give a shit if you think my posts ring true (sic) or not quite frankly. And if anything is 'bizarre' it is your vitriolic and spiteful 'personal' attack on me.

The NHS in Scotland cannot be fully devolved until the Scottish government gets to set the budget. Currently the Scottish government has to work with the budget that Westminster decides.

Or as Ruth Davidson and the IFS pointed out, it can choose to spend less on health than Westminster decides and indeed has done that.

We are being encouraged to see 'Westminster' as the fall guy for all the cuts... but the Scottish government doubled the cuts to local government before passing them onto Scottish councils. And its unfunded council tax policy means that LAs have no room to decide that protecting public services are worth a small increase.

Ah, I have had a laugh about David Beckam though. Bless him, I doubt he can even spell Scotland let alone point it out on a map. Right, I'm off to work. Some of you seem to spend a huge amount of time on these type of threads. Not very healthy IMHO. Might be better to take a break.

Because it is a life changing thing 'for us that have a vote' and will affect our futures dramatically whatever the outcome is.

When you start on personal insults on peoples abilities you lose all credibility in my eyes!!

Please don't be so condescending.

Toad Bet he loved that. Did he laugh or was he a twunt about it?