Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

It looks as if you missed my last two posts now.

We are not too small, too poor or too stupid to be allowed to run our own affairs. We have been told this for generations but a sizeable proportion of the electorate simply are not willing to be told this any more.

Could you let us know who said this about the Scots and also advise us what Mr Salmond and his team would be taking to any negotiating table to deal with?

OneNight I did wonder!

"Out of interest, what will Mr Salmond and his team be bringing to the table to negotiate with?"

He'll be bringing his charm and fraternal love for England which will go down like a cup of cold sick. I'm not stupid. His contempt for "Westminster" is contempt for the English.

Still sounds like a cult to me though, speech or not!

SconeQueen You see, that's where we differ, because I look around the world and see other small countries with around the same population as us, and, in some cases, fewer resources, who are governing themselves successfully.

Oh aye, that'll be why some of them are desperate to live in the UK then.

A bit like strong socialists who rarely work, people who extol the virtues of "other small nations" never seem to have experienced living or working in one of them.

Phaedra
And there is only now an "awakening of active engagement in the political process" ? We've had universal suffrage for almost 100 years.

Yes, and we have also had declining involvement in the political process and declining turnouts in elections. This campaign has seen people getting actively involved in all sorts of ways. Town hall meetings have been packed, I believe that registration on the electoral rolls in now standing at 97% after a huge rush for last-minute registrations, and, where I am (and I believe that the same is true all over Scotland), people are coming out to campaign who have never been involved in political campaigning before (myself included). It's not hyperbole, just have a look around and you will see it for yourself. (Don't look for evidence on the BBC or in the press, however...).

Some posters clearly labour under the lack of knowledge that the rest of the world has also suffered a recession, and is still suffering from its after effects in terms of cuts and lowered wages. The UK hasn't weathered the recession that badly in comparison to many.

Renewable energy is heavily subsidised. I think many of the Yes supporters would be a lot less keen on it, or at least in its current structure, if they knew about the funding and the economics of it and who benefits.

Really, you don't think the BBC or the press are showing the fact that people are turning out or actively campaigning (on both sides might I add)? What news have you been watching or reading because it is all over it!

A bit like strong socialists who rarely work, people who extol the virtues of "other small nations" never seem to have experienced living or working in one of them.

Well, actually, I'm just back from two years living in Switzerland. Only slightly larger in population than Scotland and with fewer natural resources. It is doing very well, and confirmed me in my view that we can manage on our own too.

You need to do some reading up on the EU - in fact a lot of reading up, as you appear to have no concept of how it works?
Actually, I do, at both strategic and operational level. I work in economic development and have been responsible for a number of successful applications for EU funding. I'm personally not convinced that EU membership is the way to go. (See, for example, my comment re Switzerland above, which is not an EU member but which has negotiated various successful bilateral agreements with the EU.)

StatisticallyChallenged sorry a bit behind but yes, I find it incredibly negative. Putting something else down to push yourself up. Not nice.

grovel, you've spotted that too.

It is doing very well, and confirmed me in my view that we can manage on our own too.

Switzerland too has a federal structure of course. And a prime location right in the middle of Europe. And one of the strongest financial services sectors in the WORLD. And is currently part of the free movement of people agreement with the EU.

All of which Scotland won't have.

I am interested to know what other countries you have researched as you referenced in your earlier posts?

I work in economic development and have been responsible for a number of successful applications for EU funding.

This does not mean understanding of the EU, such as membership, currency control, trade agreements, etc, nor how funding agreements are negotiated and put in place. I could go on and on. The EU is an incredibly complex organisation which is often underestimated by people.

Hello. To put the views I've already stated on previous threads in a slightly different way, before I turn into a pumpkin.

I admire the motivation of some yes voters - to make a fresh start towards creating a fairer and more equal society despite the possibility of the Scottish economy taking a nosedive for a while the yes justification surely can't be put any more fairly (generously?) than that

But I don't think a Scottish government would be any better than a WM government - in a nutshell, power corrupts. And I don't think Scotland would lead rUK by example.

Should Scotland be an independent country? As a matter of principle - best governed by the people who live in the country? Maybe. If most of the electorate want independence.

Should Scotland leave the UK? Even if it's entitled to claim self-determination, no. We are too entwined with UK. We share an island. We share a language and religions. We share a long successful history. We already have a devolved parliament with the promise of very significant additional powers. There's too much else going on in the world - war, famine, environmental issues, for us to be wasting our time arguing over the matter of Scottish independence. It would be different if we were an oppressed, impoverished country, but we're not. It almost sickens me to think of the time that would be spent on negotiating our independence. For what? An admirable ideal that I don't think will be realised. Partly because we won't be able to afford it and partly because the electorate of Scotland doesn't have a shared ideal (IMO) of how its society should be structured and run.

Also, the devo max option: AS gets his way either way - if devo max is voted for the Scottish gov't gets more powers and if he isn't allowed to have it as an option he gets to complain that the WM gov't is being unfair, as usual. Despite a preferential system of voting it would probably have diluted the yes vote.

Final paragraph before I go to bed. I would feel so sad and ashamed that the Scottish electorate can't continue to try to work with the rUK, preferring to blame 'them' for our problems - (one example - the NHS is under strain because of WM 'cuts' according to yes voters, - but where is the criticism of the unhealthy lifestyles of so many scottish people; habits that are celebrated in the popular culture of Scotland - the excessive drinking and eating, the pride in tunnocks teacakes and caramel wafers, irn bru, scotch pies lager and whisky? Where are the SNP's plans to tax junk food and put the revenue into subsidising the consumption of nutritious food? Giving infant-aged school children rock-hard pears and green bananas on school days is going to have diddly-squat effect on their health!) Instead, putting up new borders (metaphorically if not literally, but the border issue is unclear), competing with the people who live in the south of our island. It seems such a regressive thing to do. Not progressive. At worst it feels like squabbling over who gets what - that list by Meikel (apologies if your name is not correct) - Scotland has this, that and the next oil, beef cattle etc etc - weren't you taught to share nicely?

Hi SC!
The way the news is being presented is biased against the Yes campaign. Just as one small example, there was extensive mention of the Orange Walk yesterday (without actually any mention of the fact that Better Together are not actually that happy to be associated with the OO) and no coverage of the large Yes gatherings in Glasgow or Edinburgh etc. Most of the emphasis and language is also from the point of view of the pro-union side - ie emphasis on "threats", positioning of Yes stance after scare headline and before further coverage of/quotes by No campaign etc. Try googing "BBC bias referendum" and you will find plenty very concrete examples.

I must admit that up until recently I respected the BBC. On the basis of seeing how they are reporting the Referendum story at the moment, I now feel that their credibility in reporting even unrelated stories is severely undermined.

Isn't the Swiss economy largely based on Banking and Financial Services and its history of economic stability? . How is that going to pan out if we're in a currency union or still waiting Euro approval

Sconequeen Funnily enough, I've lived in Switzerland too. Just remind me what their most important industry is again? Banking. That's right. Banking, based on preserving tax regimes that most countries shy away from. Its essential they remain outwith the EU because of this.

And lets compare Scotland. Fairer, more equal socialist left wing leaning Scotland. You couldn't pick two more opposing countries if you tried.

Switzerland, ah yes. The Switzerland which loves to pay immigrant workers (ie anyone from outside Switzerland) less than Swiss workers for the same job. That has family run firms that do a very nice line in exploiting such workers, thank you very much. Does it still compulsorily X ray incoming workers for TB?

Actually, I do, at both strategic and operational level. I work in economic development and have been responsible for a number of successful applications for EU funding. I'm personally not convinced that EU membership is the way to go. (See, for example, my comment re Switzerland above, which is not an EU member but which has negotiated various successful bilateral agreements with the EU.)

You apply for EU funding and put together cases for grants. Its a bit different when a country applies for EU membership. In case you hadn't realised.

If you know so much about the EU and work in 'economic development' why did you write:

In terms of EU funding, Scotland also currently has to negotiate via Westminster and the wider UK situation may not be applicable to Scotland. An independent Scotland in the EU could negotiate direct.

What would you be negotiating for - because i guarantee with the GDP per capita Salmond is projecting and your status as 14th richest country is the world - there is only one thing you would be negotiating and and that would be how many millions a day it would cost you to be a member. There would be no money coming Scotland's way - it would be heading in the other direction straight into the EU coffers. And if you are personally not convinced the EU is the way to go - you better have a word with Mr Salmond - he's already been on the blower to Brussels according to today's reports from Indy Central.

(as it happens on EU membership,I agree with you - but that's another thread for another day).

As for the Scotland/Switzerland comparisons .. I don't know where to start.

choco that is a great post. Instead, putting up new borders (metaphorically if not literally, but the border issue is unclear), competing with the people who live in the south of our island. It seems such a regressive thing to do. Not progressive. At worst it feels like squabbling over who gets what

Totally.

scone I appreciate you taking the time to answer some of my questions. I don't think we will ever agree as just reading what you say makes me rather scared for the future. It is this sort of thing, not the media, which makes me want to pack my bags and head back to the Netherlands. I am fortunate I have that option to do so. Many do not.

By the way, with Switzerland's population of just over 8m. That's a perfectly viable population for growth and economic sustainability so I am not sure why it would be used for comparison.

Scotland is around 5m. So if you can find 2m more people who are skilled in the right things and could fill the right roles, prepared to stay for a good period of time then there might be an outside chance of it working. But I think not.

And on that note, good night ladies. Don't give up hope on the No side :)

I will keep hoping.

I really would compare an independent Scotland more to Slovakia or Latvia. They would be far more similar, economically, socially and politically, and most likely have similar problems.

If the Orange Order march hadn't been covered, you'd (yes campaign you rather than you personally you) have been yelling that the involvement of such a disgraceful organisation was being ignored and saying it was bias to make BT look better. There was coverage and pictures of the big gatherings in Glasgow yesterday. There was also coverage of the protest today. We've had a long discussion about the causes of that towards the end of the last thread.

The BBC reporting is not biased. You know how I came to that conclusion ? Because I think it is biased in favour of Yes. It can't be both.

Tonight seeing Eck wrapping himself presidentially in 2 flags talking about how he will start negotiations early.

The conduct of the second debate with Darling was disgraceful.

I think John Curtice goes out of his way to give the best possible interpretation of poll results for yes.

The Orange walk was covered because actually it was new- this hadn't happened before in the campaign. Lots of yes and no out in Glasgow and Edinburgh on a sunny Saturday?- wow that's a surprise.

The mob at the BBC headquarters today got plenty of coverage; the rally I was it not a mention.

I see that sconequeen is avoiding responding to me.

Bed then I think.

Good point Phaedra, I haven't seen the aerial no covered. Bias, BBC BIAS I tell you!