Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

I really am going to bed now!

But regarding the aerial 'no' thing you mentioned earlier today on this thread. I looked all over the internet and couldn't find a thing about it?

SconeQueen is very nice but Scotland can be like Switzerland is hardly worth arguing about it's such a non - starter.

A newly independent Scotland could not possibly offer the economic security of the Swiss financial services sector. Nor would it even want to .

Livingzuid
This does not mean understanding of the EU, such as membership, currency control, trade agreements, etc, nor how funding agreements are negotiated and put in place. I could go on and on. The EU is an incredibly complex organisation which is often underestimated by people.

That's a bit dismissive, if I may say so. I probably understand the complexities at least as much as you, if not more so.

All of which Scotland won't have.
In the nicest possible way, can I say that you have no idea what an independent Scotland will or will not have.

Actually, as you have mentioned Switzerland's location/situation, in terms of geography, Scotland may be peripheral to the UK but it is not peripheral in the context of Northern Europe. It is also at the centre of the oil industry for the foreseeable future, has up to 25% of Europe's renewable resources, has a strong financial services sector which some leading figures in the industry do not think is at risk, and a range of other natural resources and strategic advantages. An independent Scotland could bring a lot to whichever negotiating tables it wanted to sit at.

Choccaluvva
I would feel so sad and ashamed that the Scottish electorate can't continue to try to work with the rUK, preferring to blame 'them' for our problems.
I actually know what you are saying here but look at it in a different way: I think that Scotland has been "infantilized" by the Union. It has been all too easy to blame our problems on someone else, because we do not have power over our own affairs. An independent Scotland would have to take full responsibility for sorting out its own problems, and not be able to sit back and blame things on someone else.

Anyway, thanks to everyone, as usual for an interesting debate. Off to bed now - good night!

I can't find any mention of it either.

Here you go

Thank you !

Phaedra I'm a regular lurker, delurking to ask about the police being routinely armed, something I find very disturbing as it's such a massive shift in UK mainland policing.

Could you tell me a bit more about it please?

Found this:

I get the feeling the Yes campaign is worried about the "mumsnet factor", as it were. There seems to be a new Yes campaigner attached to every thread on independence now.

cf other threads. Just observing trends, not saying they aren't allowed to be or anything. Interesting.

tbh I'd like a bit of a go at AS myself, and I don't mean that in physical terms but in debate.

Ditto Chelsy, I'd love a debate with him. And a proper one, not an online one!

There seems to be a new Yes campaigner attached to every thread on independence now.

Well it doesn't seem to be doing them a lot of good. From what I've read from the yessers on here, if I were voting I think it would push me further the other way.

The arguments are as lacking in substance and as fanciful as I thought they were when I first posted this morning. Nothing that's been written has persuaded me towards the separatist cause, quite the reverse.

I am still completely bemused as to how people can vote to split a 300 old year old Union on such generalities and platitudes. It's mind boggling to me.

Now I really, really am - going to get some shut eye.

Really!

I am!

Nite all!

Ipity

m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-27389762

m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-27492909
He said there had been occasions when firearms officers had supported unarmed police on routine duties, such as dispersing late night crowds from outside pubs and clubs.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-scotlands-arming-officers-routine-4138010

"We are not too small, too poor or too stupid to be allowed to run our own affairs. We have been told this for generations but a sizeable proportion of the electorate simply are not willing to be told this any more."

I'm afraid that all of your posts sounds rather like a paste job from campaign literature sconequeen including your latest post. Please tell us who has ever said the above about the Scots?

Onenight - no, sorry, not ignoring you but this thread does move fast and I seem to be the only Yesser still up! I don't think it's very nice or accurate of you to say that I am pasting from campaign literature. I think if you look through my posts you will see that I can put together my own thoughts. But John Swinney's phrase does sum up very well arguments that crop up regularly against Scotland being able to govern itself. I have been around long enough to have seen them crop up regularly in the utterings of Westminster politicians and in the press. In fact, these sentiments have been expressed again even since I have been online here this evening. I'm not going to pick them out for you because it's late but if you scroll back you can see them for yourself.

Livingzuid
And it certainly has it good compared to the last time I lived here. I can't believe how much things have improved. But it's not enough for some is it? No it's most definitely not enough for me. It is an absolute outrage that children in this country are living in poverty and that there is fuel poverty too. I am not going to apologise for refusing to accept that there can't be a better way, and I personally think that an independent Scotland is our best chance of a better way. Post-independence, I would be voting for a party which prioritised measures to end child poverty and fuel poverty over some other less essential services. I also think that the economy would grow due to targeted support by a government with direct responsibility for economic development with all the economic levers within its direct control, and that that would increase the amount of public funding which would be available to address these issues.

*Did you inform the good citizens of Aberdeen and Shetland that they are now carrying the whole country as a result of a Yes vote? " Income from oil is projected to be 10-15% of an independent Scotland's income two years' hence. We have a range of different sectors which will generate income for us, and oil is just one part of that. By the way, and though I think oil is a fortuitous addition to the Scottish economy rather than a long-term mainstay, there are strong indications that there may be large reserves off the west coast which are not factored into current revenue estimates.

Definitely off to bed now!

m.ft.com/cms/s/2/2b07a72c-3c0a-11e4-96b8-00144feabdc0.html

A good article in the FT. Would that anyone in the Yes camp take notice instead of screaming Project Fear.

That's a bit dismissive, if I may say so. I probably understand the complexities at least as much as you, if not more so. that's rather arrogant and presumptuous. I have no intention of sharing in a public Internet forum what I do for a living or justify my answers with such personal information. But I and other posters have poined out that what you do are funding applications. Quite a bit different to EU membership. Perhaps we might actually know more than you are prepared to realise.

In the nicest possible way, can I say that you have no idea what an independent Scotland will or will not have. Indeed. All the more reason to vote No. As the FT article above will also tell you.

Actually, as you have mentioned Switzerland's location/situation, in terms of geography, Scotland may be peripheral to the UK but it is not peripheral in the context of Northern Europe. It is also at the centre of the oil industry for the foreseeable future, has up to 25% of Europe's renewable resources

So Scotland will remove itself from its main partner which accounts for 70% of trade, to forge ahead in new markets with an unstable currency situation to sell a product most of Northern Europe already has access to?

As to your comments on oil and renewable energy I have replied to that with no response.

has a strong financial services sector which some leading figures in the industry do not think is at risk, and a range of other natural resources and strategic advantages. An independent Scotland could bring a lot to whichever negotiating tables it wanted to sit at.

Which leading figures? What other resources and strategic advantages? I refer you again to the FT article. Which quite clearly states the danger to the financial services industry.

Responding to my questions with no concrete answers, and avoiding others I have posed is not improving your crusade to promote the Yes campaign. I have yet to see a single straight answer.

Thanks Phaedra. It's even worse than I thought, I can't believe this is happening with so little consultation with outside or governmental bodies. It somewhat undermines the fluffy picture the SNP likes to paint of itself.

Sorry, a couple of last comments about things I've just seen posted:

Phaedra I'm a regular lurker, delurking to ask about the police being routinely armed, something I find very disturbing as it's such a massive shift in UK mainland policing.

I'm not in favour of this either. Not all Yes supporters are (a) SNP supporters or (b) happy with all SNP policies. The routine arming of the police is one policy which I think should be reversed, or, at least, be the subject of proper public consultation. But you are not voting on this issue in the referendum. The referendum is about whether you want your own government. The policies of an independent Scotland would be decided through the ballot box later on.

There seems to be a new Yes campaigner attached to every thread on independence now.
I'm not a new Yes campaigner attaching myself to this thread. I've been posting on and off for a while but due to work and canvassing haven't been on Mumsnet to read or post since last weekend (I think - last week has been a bit of a blur). Doing it for my own interest too - definitely no instructions to do so by AS or anyone else! Do let me know if I'm not welcome...

SconeQueen I don't think they were referring to you. Every new thread there tends to be someone who pops up with a post or list which really is straight from the facebook world of the yes campaign (I'm sure you've seen the sort!) and basically posts them verbatim. We've had the same list about 8 times. They pop up, put on a very strong Yes ideological post or a "here's what Scotland has" list then fail to actually engage in debate, and vanish. It's become a bit of a pattern.

There are plenty of regular posters and genuine newbies on both sides, but it does look like there are a few social media spammer types around too.

I recognise you sconequeen! I think it was others appearing out of the blue.

How did the press not make more of the police? I 'm not impressed by BBCScotland either on this!

X post!

Sconequeen

If you are an economist, then do yourself a favour and have a read of that Financial Times article livingzuid has posted.

Then have a read of the responses below it.

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/2b07a72c-3c0a-11e4-96b8-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DHlwnO75

scone you say you are able to formulate your own arguments yet all I see in your answers is waffle regurgitated from other politicians and they are very naive. I see nothing definite in your responses and the oil thing has been done to death already. It is not a legitimate reliable source of revenue.

Post-independence, I would be voting for a party which prioritised measures to end child poverty and fuel poverty over some other less essential services. Which less essential services would these be then?

It is sad that you believe an independent Scotland would have all the resources to provide the utopia you describe. The reality is a Yes vote will plunge a whole country into turmoil from which Scotland on its own will struggle to recover from. Thus hurting even more those you are trying to protect. Have you not in your research on other countries, come across poverty? Big or small, it exists and is most certainly not something you can blame being part of the Union for!

In reality, a Yes vote really is the most selfish thing you could do. I am fortunate I can leave if it gets too bad. Many others couldn't. The poverty cycle will continue and get worse.

If Credit Suisse and Mark Carney are correct about the need to be in a surplus for both of the SNPs favoured currency options then we are looking at massive cuts. It would be incredibly difficult to protect the welfare, health and education budgets when welfare alone is over 1/3rd of our spending

Livingzuid: Perhaps we might actually know more than you are prepared to realise.

I'm sorry to say this but you are coming over as a bit aggressive and rude. I've tried to be polite in putting my views forward in a positive way. I haven't questioned your knowledge or qualifications but you have basically said that I don't know what I am talking about. I don't know what you do for a living and you don't know what I do for a living either. You can have a debate without suggesting that the other person on the debate doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

Which leading figures? Well, off the top of my head and to name but two, Sir Angus Grossart and the chap who heads up Aberdeen Asset Management (sorry, his name always escapes me but you'll find him if you google).

What other resources and strategic advantages?

Resources: a diverse range of sectors including a wide range of natural resources and related added value industries (from timber to fisheries and aquaculture with lots more inbetween), food and drink, whisky, tourism, service industries, financial services, renewables and hydro-electricity, life sciences...

Strategic advantages: include - skilled workforce, good academic and research base, physical room to accommodate growth, key location geographically in relation to Northern Europe/the North Sea...

An independent Scotland with a tailored economic development strategy and support mechanisms could grow these sectors, maximise our existing advantages, and develop new ones.

scone you are of course allowed to post your opinion. I appreciate that you take the time to respond. I just completely disagree with the reply!

SC
Yes, I've see the point about needing to have a substantial surplus to enter into a currency union. If it proves to be correct, it would have to affect the final decision as to whether to go for that option or not. Nothing is set in stone yet.

Sconequeen
If you are an economist, then do yourself a favour and have a read of that Financial Times article livingzuid has posted.
Fontanella- you're being just a little bit rude too....