Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

at the outrage over the CU comment.

Night all. Here's to a peaceful week. Shaking in me boots!

What do you expect, JCusack. Weathermen have been wrong before though.

The thread is too fast for me really to keep up, like many of you I know. But can I just say certain posts about us people who vote Yes have been quite offensive too. Luckily my shoulders are broad. And it helps to have a rubbish memory!! e.g. I am not a 'fanatic' and have forgotten the adjective that came with it, but it didn't apply to me either. I am a person who has weighed things up and decided to vote Yes. That's it. As good natured a as I can pull up in the current 'climate'.

flippinda I know we are many posts along and I am yet again posting a long reply , but I wanted to let you and the other posters know my reasons for a no. It may help someone somewhere, who knows. It's also kind of therapy for me. I was crying over it all earlier to DH and have been surprised by my strong reaction to what is going on. To be honest, much of it I find frightening, that people in my country could be this way.

Sorry for its length.

I really want political reform and change. My part of the world in England suffers just as much as a result of centralisation. Our system is based on structures hundreds of years old that has no place in modern society. It must go. I get the anger and frustration at the system. But the change should not be this way.

Scotland could be independent. Of course it could. It would be a social backwater out in the North Sea, racked with financial trouble and battling recession and continued social unrest, but it would be independent. And well after my lifetime who knows what will happen. Is the pain worth it? Not from my perspective, and I am certainly not prepared to jump inside the 'We can do it' bubble of unreality.

Scotland became great because of the partnership. It is a strong partner already within the Union. A vote for no is not a vote for any status quo. A vote for no is for stability, security and working together to make positive things happen. How can this be a bad thing?

• I am British. I have a proud Scots heritage and I spent much of my childhood here, but I identify more with Britishness. I wonder if this is something that has gone missing through the years.

• I am very anti Nationalism. I think it is inward looking, short term, divisive, racist and isolationist. I despise UKIP for the same reason. Some of the stuff I have seen with the Yes campaign, to be honest, reminds me of very mild versions of extreme right wing fascism. I have seen its rise in some of the places I have lived in Europe and I am now seeing it here which I find horrifying. That may not be the intention and I certainly am not accusing anyone on this forum of being fascists, but this is how parts of the campaign have come across to me.

• I believe in devolution and a federal structure. I think it will work brilliantly for the whole of the UK. We really are better together, working as a team. Change is coming regardless of the outcome. But let it be the right change done in a structured, orderly way, working with everyone together to find a progressive way forward.

• (rant alert) Can't stand Salmond. Cannot. How could anyone trust anything that man puts his name to? He's my Thatcher. I sympathise with those who say the Yes campaign is not about him, but it really is I am afraid. One man and his ego. He is also a bully. I was bullied at school and I feel particularly sensitive about this one. I feel this campaign will have been won because he bullied everyone else around him into not letting them have their say. I couldn't give a shit if he was a better debater in that second round. If you choose to vote because he can shout louder than someone else and you are somehow impressed by this then you need your head examined.

• I didn't bloody well move my family all this way over here to suddenly find ourselves in a foreign country. This is my country. Give me my flag back! We did our research and thought that Yes was such a laughable proposition and that most others would feel the same way, although I do have sympathy with the desire for political change. We were wrong it seems.

• I think a lot of Yes voters don't appreciate how good they have it already. There is poverty everywhere and that isn't right. But since coming back to Scotland all I have seen is massive infrastructure and regeneration projects. How do you sustain that by being independent?

• I don't think you can blame all the poverty and all of Scotland's problems on Westminster. That irritates me when I hear that. If you can't sort it out now for god's sake, with all the resources available to you as part of the UK, how are you going to do it when you are independent.

• Not one Yes voter I have spoken to has given me the answer to my questions. I am not gambling our future on 'it'll be alright' vague promises. What I have been told is so vague as to be nothing helpful at all. I think the Yes campaign is living in a bubble.

• it takes YEARS to sort out some of the stuff that has been declared can be done in 18 months. Negotiation with the EU alone is not something where you can stroll up to Brussels, have a pint or two and go home with membership in your hands. It is a complex beast. You have to negotiate with 28 different countries. 28! How long do people think that will take? Is Scotland's entry into the EU a priority, with all the trouble some countries are still in with their economies and Russia lurking in the background? I think not.

• The sums for the cost of becoming independent alone don't add up. I believe Salmond has suggested something around 250 million. I know building projects for a block of flats that cost more than that! Yet to be independent requires setting up such huge amounts of infrastructure, not to mention the cost of immigration, oh the list goes on. I found an article on the FT that suggested closer to 4bn. Where does this come from?

• I think a lot of Yes voters are completely unrealistic about what needs to be done to be independent. Or grasp fully what the consequences of being independent are, and all the responsibility that goes with it.

• I think a lot of Yes voters are completely unrealistic about the ongoing cost of provision of services. The Yes campaign can bleat about Scandinavian countries all they like. The tax would be astronomical and I don't see salaries rising to match it.

• Why oh why would Scotland isolate itself from the EU and its nearest neighbour by being independent? It will be a minnow in a pool full of sharks. No clout whatsoever. How would it attract anything like the foreign investment it needs?

• I don't think a population size of 5m is sustainable and I think there will be a huge brain drain in the short term. New Zealand has often been touted as a good example of a small country. If you look at their immigration policies and the issues they have then the story is a bit different.

• Don't get me started on the currency issue. It is not up to the SNP to demand use of the pound and think all will be ok.

• The quality of people needed to set up an independent Scotland simply aren't there. They probably could be if trained up and have the experience, but right now it isn't there.

• The cost of things will go up. It's simple economics. It will be more expensive to trade, particularly with any currency uncertainty, so therefore the costs of goods will go up. Anyone that thinks the UK will roll over and go 'ok let's have a currency union' needs to look at the size of the electorate there and think again.

• Jobs will go. Of course they will. We just don't know how much that will be and what the end figure is. But it will be very high. Money has been flowing south of the border since the announcement of a referendum. There is low confidence in Scotland as a financial proposition right now. That will get worse, rather than better, in the advent of a Yes vote. Not scaremongering, fact.

• There is no appreciation for the rUK electorate at all. Scotland will, in all senses, be on its own. the UK govt will look to its own electorate first. Scotland's wants will be of secondary importance.

.

I agree to come to your party

But but, I haven't invited you!

When I read the yes supporters FB comments, I rarely see any properly thought out arguments for their votes.

I have seen everything from "let's get that Cameron quaking in his Etonian shoes" to "f the English" to the ubiquitous "I want a fairer Scotland".

I love the last one. As if nationalism equals socialism when they are such uneasy bedfellows. Salmond is no socialist! This is the man promising to cut corporation tax to lure business.

These are the people who are deciding our future. Did you see the protest against the BBC? Seething aggression. If anything the BBC has been more biased to the yes vote.

Sorry Scone I suppose we've all fancied someone without it being reciprocated.

Eck can ask but those gorgeous boys at the Bank of England can just ignore him.

I'm not deflecting JCW ... If you have arseholes on your FB, delete the fuckers. I've deleted some, shall we say spirited Yessers. No qualms. I also had a no pal put up a picture saying " stick yer independence up your arse". I liked that one, because it made me laugh. The guy who posted it is a pal. He votes no, I vote yes, we're both vocal about it but like each other anyway.

LatteLovertLovesLattes
Honestly, I am not dismissing people's fears. I just sincerely believe that a lot of what is being said at the moment is being said in the heat of trying to achieve a No vote. If there is a Yes vote, and once the dust settles, I think a lot of it will prove to be bluster. There are countering opinions in big business and in financial services (eg Sir Angus Grossart) who are, frankly, highly dismissive of what others in their sectors are saying Sir Angus was quoted last week as saying that there would be threats of "plagues of locusts" next. I know it is extremely worrying for the staff concerned, and I am not trying to belittle that.

But we're not in the same 'helpless mess as the rest' sconequeen. We have a Scottish Government with devolved powers if they would only actually use all of them and use them effectively.
No, only a small proportion of powers are currently devolved to the Scottish Government. For example, it has no tax raising powers (tax varying powers do not give full control of revenue raising), and no say over the benefits system and associated labour market policies, and these are both essential to address economic, employment and poverty issues. We are currently able only to decide how to spend a certain amount of money allocated to us by Westminster, the level of which is decided by Westminster. In an independent Scotland, we would have full control over all the revenue raised in Scotland and be able to make our own decisions as to how to use it.

I'll risk annoying Lovely Rita by saying hear,hear to that livingzuid.

What's going to happen if we don't have a currency union though - what cuurency are we going to use? If we use sterling as part of a currency union, it's controlled by the Bank of England.

Can I give another example of a policy mentioned in the white paper that sounds good but isn't when you start looking at it in detail?

Universal childcare - 600 hours of childcare to around half of Scotland’s two year olds after the first budget. Doesn't that sound great?

However, how are they going to create the infrastructure to support this? People are alread struggling to get places now despite the more modest (recent) increase in provision. Is there going to be an increase in childcare providers? How are they going to get people into the profession? How are they going to fund that?

It's no good saying they will provide more childcare if the infrastructure isn't there to support it because it just won't work.

Rooners

And this is the man whose bosom buddy is/was(?) Rupert Murdoch and that gives some indication as to how he thinks of working folk. Most people that I know personally would not sit on the same platform with Murdoch.

They're just using 'words' flippinada. They sound great as sound bites or for extraction to pamphlets but they're not developed or costed and no thought has been given to the wider economic implications. Their figures don't add up.

change. We were wrong it seems.

- I think a lot of Yes voters don't appreciate how good they have it already. There is poverty everywhere and that isn't right. But since coming back to Scotland all I have seen is massive infrastructure and regeneration projects. How do you sustain that by being independent?

That is what my little brother (who is a No) said. He'd been discussing it at work. What he does is in a boom at the moment. He and his colleagues are in secure jobs and homes, great schools and fantastic health system. The conclusion they came to is what is going to get better?

If there are problems in some parts why has the Scottish government sat on its hands? Education, health and housing are in its control.

When I read the yes supporters FB comments, I rarely see any properly thought out arguments for their votes.

That is what worries me as an outsider looking in. Their seems to be a naivety (which is also in evidence on this thread), a lack of desire to question, to analyse, to delve deeper, to listen to the other side of the argument ... just a willingness to be swept along by platitudes and assurances that everything is going to be wonderful in the new Scottish Utopia and all the cautionary and contradictory opinion from other sources are 'scaremongering' and 'conspiracy'.

It's almost as if people have no concept of the enormity of what they are voting for and the seismic repercussions it will have - not just on 5.2 million Scots but almost 60 million Brits living outside Scotland.

When we are free we can make our own decisions, do what we want and so on.

I just don't understand how people can be so complacent and accepting of what they are being told?

livingzuid I missed your very eloquent and thoughtful post while I was getting on my high horse about childcare. Thank you :)

Well that's one decision an independent Scotland could make for itself ie whether it wants to sign up for a currency union or not

It is this kind of statement that makes me think the Yes supporters truly believe the world revolves around Scotland.

Also you CAN'T be independent when you are DEPENDENT on someone else's central bank. You just can't. And don't spout about the virtues of the Euro, which Scotland currently can't join. There are plenty of issues there as well.

livingzuid :( if only people would listen!

Intolerant, bullying, aggressive.?There are such traits on both' sides' IMO. After a Yes majority it would not only be the SNP making the decisions. There would be a team NEGOTIATING.

Can I add. Politely. There has been an independence movement in Scotland since well before most of us were born. This not something cooked up by AS and NS because they wanted to annoy half the people on this thread. Some of you are getting silly now. I am not disregarding the real concerns some of you have described. I need to go to bed. Good night, everyone.

Yes livingzuid - excellent post!

What is that game where you have a plastic body and you can fish out organs from inside and play doctors? Well sadly they may be decent local politicians but when it comes to this sort of business Salmond's campaign are like a bunch of kids with a 'Let's Play Countries' in front of them.

I wouldn't trust a child who had only used a plastic doctor game to operate on me and neither do I trust the SNP as it is currently operating to understand how to build and develop a new country. Their seeming lack of concern about healing wounds regardless of the outcome of the vote also concerns me greatly.

Fontella
It's because change is needed and this has delivered 'a cause' to people who need something to cling to.

I note that independents have today changed their language, apparently they are not a 'political campaign' they're dirty words just to be used by negative No-ers, they are a "movement"

I don't know who does their spin, but they are very clever. Thankfully I'm reasonably politically aware to smell shite, unfortunately you'll find this crap repeated over and over by the separatists. When you hear it, mock, because that is what it deserves.

This has kept me up well past my usual bedtime. I must be off. Am really enjoying this discussion, thanks everyone.

OneNight - I know!

Oh I well remember the independence debate growing up. My family are all Yes voters. Not one thing they have said has persuaded me that Yes is a good idea, far from it. Just because it has happened growing up doesn't mean it is a good thing though.

Intolerant, bullying, aggressive.?There are such traits on both' sides' IMO. Of course there is. It is human nature. It's politicians and the more they do it the more respect they lose imo. I haven't said there isn't any of that down south. But to me, it is much more apparent on the Yes side. Destruction of posters, intimidation in the street by Yes campaigners. If you haven't had that then it's a good thing. But I have and can only draw my conclusions based on what I have observed and researched.

After a Yes majority it would not only be the SNP making the decisions. There would be a team NEGOTIATING. Of course. And what would Scotland bring to the table to bargain with?

Scotland could be independent. Of course it could. It would be a social backwater out in the North Sea, racked with financial trouble and battling recession and continued social unrest, but it would be independent?

You see, I think this is what it boils down to on the No side. Scotland has over the centuries produced people who have excelled in all walks of life, and contributed to major developments in science, industry, literature, the arts and philosophical thought.

I refuse to believe that we would ever be a social backwater, and I believe that we have the resources and the ability to be a successful independent country. Devolution has helped support the development of a new confidence in Scotland at all levels; independence will nurture this further. We are not too small, too poor or too stupid to be allowed to run our own affairs. We have been told this for generations but a sizeable proportion of the electorate simply are not willing to be told this any more. And even the likes of David Cameron has said that we could be successful if we were independent - he thinks that we shouldn't do it, not that we couldn't.

What is happening on the Yes side during this campaign is truly exciting. It's an awakening of active engagement in the political process and a hunger to take our destiny into our own hands. It is not something to fear: it is something to welcome.

Did you see the protest against the BBC? Seething aggression. If anything the BBC has been more biased to the yes vote.
The anti-Yes bias of the BBC is disgraceful and not just a matter of opinion. Yesterday's biased accounts of campaigning were just one small example - extensive coverage of small No stalls with a few folk and a complete lack of coverage of huge Yes rallies and flashmobs etc. And I personally have yet to see any sign of aggression. I am sure there are a few nutters and foul-mouthed individuals out there (on both sides) but the Yes movement as a whole is extraordinarily positive and engaging more people by the day. It cannot be brushed aside or dismissed by understating its size (as the BBC does) or by writing it off as being negative or aggressive.

Yep, I've got to hit the sack too.

I'm not even bloody Scottish, I'm Welsh ffs and I've hardly got any kip these last two nights because of this flamin referendum of yours! I planned to work this weekend but all I've done is read, write, eat, sleep Scottish referendum. You buggers owe me for all this angst!

(only kidding of course)

I can only begin to imagine what it must be like for you in the thick of it. Good luck Scotland and I mean that. Night all.
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