Indyref 9

[IrnBruTheNoo]

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is anyone following this thread still undecided?

In my list of people the SNP blame for not doing anything. I forgot them blaming the EU for not backing calls for the Scottish government to demand that companies bidding for public contracts pay the Living Wage. Despite EU spokespeople saying this wasn't the case and it being something already done in Wales and London.

So E) Blame the EU

And yes it is relevant to the debate if the Scottish government have been deliberately sitting on its hands for the last 7 years pretending that devolution is rubbish.

We already have many powers at Holyrood. There were already Tax varying powers which the SNP handed back to Westminster because they didn't want to use them. There are the Calman powers on the statue book for 2016 and the parties are promising further powers.

Despite the concerns of the Yes camp about being punished for voting No, the SNP are responsible for the only hand back of powers of the Scottish government. The direction of travel is more powers.

but spirited that doesnt fit the narrative does it.

Anything that doesnt fit the narrative is denied.

The narrative - is we are bullied and treated badly by westminster.

Using the SVR tax powers doesnt fit the narrative.

The same will be if independence happens. "we didnt the currency because of westminster bullying" see! look they are bullying when they say no to... (complete to taste)...

Good question frankie80. There are around 14% of the population out there who are undecided. I guess people feel they don't have enough information to make a decision yet and want to take the remaining time to decide. Stating the bleeding obvious there but there are no answers!

Sorry Frankie80 you didn't ask who they were I was just having that wee conversation with myself in my head.

I have been a long time Mumsnet lurker and thought it would always stay that way. But I've also read most if not all of the Indyref threads and feel compelled to join in.

I am a proud scot, living in SE England. This last week has been so upsetting - I can't believe my country is being used as such a political pawn by salmond and his cronies. All he's ever wanted is independence at any cost. He doesn't care about the impact on the economy or that at least half the population of Scotland don't want it. It's been his lifelong manifesto and he has lied and ignored facts whenever it suits him to get to this point. His behaviour disgusts me.

Oddcommentator's recent post sums up much of the real situation. I just do not get why this is ignored by yes voters. It's really left me pretty dumbfounded and feeling totally helpless as I don't even get to vote in spite of having lived in Scotland most of my life and fully intending to return there. His answer on the Mumsnet debate about having to stick to the same electorate pool as 1979 and 1997 is bollocks - I don't recall 16 year olds being in those electorate pools. Yet another mistruth to suit what he wants.

Thank you to all the articulate no voters on all these threads. You're giving me some hope that next Thursday won't be a complete disaster.

Bronto

The talk for years now has been of a "civic nationalism" that is not based on ethnicity but of whoever is living in Scotland. (you are NOT on Team Scotland at the moment as you 've chosen to leave!) SNP have been scrupulous and keep a clean image. The feelings of anti-Englishness are now directed towards being relentlessly anti-Westminster.

The current use of relentless propaganda and how people have become excited by its upbeat mwssage scares me. Not because I fear change, (I 'm currently pushing for emigration!) but because I can see the thinness of the promises.

A lot of Yes voters seem to think that the people who leave, or lose their jobs are wealthy, Tory, and we could do without them. I want to share a story of someone who changed their mind to No recently, and why.

We rent out a Highland holiday cottage and it is full for most of the year, creating one day of work a week for a cleaner. We employ someone who is self-employed to do this, alongside DH,every week. She as unemployed, working (not for us) cash in hand. The local job centre (who are lovely, and helpful) encouraged and supported her to set up as a self-employed cleaner and she now earns about £350 a week. This she spends on supporting her 9 year old daughter.

She was a Yes but is now a No. She told one owner she was a Yes because "It will be better for people like me" and the owner explained the cottage was going on the market. Another is thinking of selling, but might just keep it for family. We are the third and we too will have to sell.

1/2 to 2/3 of our business comes from England. They love the Highlands. By now we normally have 12-16 weeks booked for next year. We currently have 2. We cannot afford the repayments on the mortgage. (Long story, but let's just say we are reluctant landlords). However, in the short term, we won't be able to pay her £50 a week to clean. DH will have to manage alone.

Now, we personally will cope. I am a teacher and earn a reasonable salary. DH has another part time job. But, she will struggle if that is the picture all around the area.

And this is the amazing Scottish tourist industry, as it is working, at the moment, on the ground. I could give you other tales of hotel bookings cancelled, house sales falling through but this one wee story should help you to understand the economic cost of independence, on a tiny scale.

She is now a No, and is working to change the minds of others who also have fairly lowly paid jobs that rely on tourism, before it is too bloody late.

Hope, dreams, la la ideas about the EU and currency. They don't keep this single mother working in a job that gives her pride and makes her feel a success. She is a small business owner. (she even had so own helping her part time over the summer, making her an employer). She will be fucked come Friday, back on the dole within months.

Oh, and there will be no money to pay for her dole because all the higher rate taxpayers will have left.

I struggle with my "having left" - I moved to a different part of the country for a temporary time. I still live in the country of my birth, even if ardent nationalists claim otherwise. I'm sure it's just coincidental that the vast majority of Scots living in rUK understand the benefits of the union and would be likely to vote to maintain them...

Agree with you brontolo.
Salmond's one and only objective is to go down in history as the man who got independence for Scotland. If he gets it and it all goes wrong he will blame everyone and everything but himself.

Rose, a sad story but very much the reality from what I hear.

Brontolo-I am the same as you. I believe I have not emigrated. I have simply moved a few miles (400) , but still!
We are the worst offenders apparently and the real reason we are not allowed to vote is for the same reason which seems to have backfired slightly although time will tell as allowing 16-17year olds the vote. Manipulation of the voting public. Salmond assumed they would vote yes and the likes of us who have left would vote no.
Anyway, that's old news- reading all the posts has meant that I think Scotland will really struggle next Friday morning, whatever the result. Half the population will not have wanted what they will have got. How do you as a nation move forward ? We're also back it that old chestnut -sectarianism. What n earth do the orange order think they will achieve today ?
Also my opinion is that salmond is as terrified as a yes vote as all the no campaigners ? He doesn't want an independent scotland, he wants to whinge and moan about wm for the rest of his public life which I think will be very short should yes prevail.

Don't know if it's already been posted but this is quite funny:

IrnBru

In the interest of representing all parties...

I do find them funny/genius, but then also feel when Cameron sings 'never ever ever getting back together not ever'... sad times. I am still hoping for a no.

Waves back.

Rosefor I have been wondering how the Highlands tourism position was doing. I can't see how it wouldn't be impacted with a yes vote, at least in the short term.
I have holidayed there many times with my family and we were there recently and noticed more Yes posters, signs and stickers everywhere; it did feel a bit unwelcoming, but I experienced no anti-Englishness at all.
I went for dinner with friends who live in the Highlands and they said that there are lots of nos, just that they didn't publicise it to avoid the politics arguments.

Plenty of Nos around (it is a bit like being gay in the 1950s - we only come out when we are sure of a welcome). I think the problem with tourism is that it actually is an industry built on hope and promise. You don't book a holiday with pessimism in your soul, but optimism. You hope for great weather, fun, a warm welcome. But, you might be sitting in Manchestet, or Cardiff at the moment and Scotland does not look a very welcoming prospect. After all, nearly half Scotland wants you gone.

So, the early holiday bookers, those who like months to plan and get excited are staying away at the moment. And it is the early bookers that bring the income to see you through November etc when income is much, much lower. So, it is damaging. Very damaging to an industry that is so easily harmed by this kind of problem. Scenes of marching and shouting don't help either. We are not yet Egypt or Turkey, but it certainly doesn't help.

Waves back to shakes and grovel as she wanders off to said meadows lol. Love that you tube clip but feel sad too

I see more & more 'Shy Nos' putting their heads above the parapet and attempting to convince Yes/Undecideds, now they realise how crucial this is for our & our children's futures.

There has been a real passion & energy from the No side over the past week.

Hopefully commonsence will prevail and current Yes voters will realise you can't form a new state on wooly wishful thinking; something based on a White Paper where everything is Best Case scenario, with no contingecy planning for the potential impact on jobs, tax revenue, retail costs, etc highlighted this week.

That the Nationalists have tried to deny these issues or pretend they don't exist, should tell you everything you need to know come polling day.

Is there a thread 10?

here be 10

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1... gone

woo hoo