Indyref 9

[IrnBruTheNoo]

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Troels thank you :) I think I just needed to have a rant and feel a bit better now. Thank goodness for MN!

I just want some straight answers on independence and I am not getting them. I was surprised by how passionately I felt on the whole subject as well! I am amazed at how people will take such a blind leap of faith, which will cause chaos, and think that's ok.

My job is highly dependent on doing business in England and in these times of uncertainty people spend even less money. They are not interested in doing business when they don't know what they will be trading in currency wise, nor what tax implications etc will be happening. Everyone is sitting and waiting and, in the advent of a yes vote, that sitting and waiting will go on for even longer. It is not going to take 18 months to work all this out, that is for sure! In the meantime, they find someone else in England to do the job and there you go, business lost.

We can move back, which would also be fine with me but I really wanted to give a go of it here. Ah well. That's democracy I guess. Neither Cameron or Salmond saw this one coming did they? From an objective view, it is good to see people getting so engaged with things. There has been too much apathy for too long.

Platypus thank you for answering my question!

Also, just catching up on the news here which indicates why I have literally done nothing at work since I started:

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11093587/Investors-pull-17bn-from-UK-as-banks-ratchet-up-Scottish-independence-pressure.html

Can someone please explain to me why reporting basic facts seems to turn into howls of scaremongering and negativity against the BT campaign? This is happening. It's been happening since the announcement of a referendum. Not propaganda but fact. Why is there so much denial, and with aggression too?

o, just out of interest, all you no voters- do you still live at home with your parents? and get pocket money? at what point did you think about moving out and doing the scary going on your own? that's the way I see it

That must be the most inane comment so far.

God I wish I could answer that livingzuid. I'm fed up with it and just want to leave now whatever the result.

I know everyone is fed up of "brilliant" articles which are supposed to sway you so Yes voters don't waste your time reading this.

For No it's a good read. It also expands on what some of us were saying about getting strangely sentimental about the Union.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11090517/Rory-Bremner-on-Scottish-independence-Why-this-proud-Scot-has-a-very-big-but....html

platypus I do take your point and it is of course not acceptable. But equally there is this problem all over Europe. There's no magic bullet for it and losing projects such as Trident would make it worse, not make it better. That money is being spent by the Ministry of Defence on a project for the UK. If Scotland is having no part of it then a) the money doesn't go to Scotland to be spent, but elsewhere in England and b) all those job losses on the Clyde would not be easily replaced, leading to increased reliance on public services and charitable donations such as foodbanks.

I really doubt that the Scottish portion of money saved by not taking part in Trident is going to see its way to those who need it most. It's not right, but a change in government structure is not going to see a change in the type of person who goes into politics. Carrying on the Trident theme, shipyards in England are actually preparing to bid for that contract as part of their preparations for a Yes vote right now. They can't wait for the thought of more business which Scotland could be handing to them on a plate.

What do you think the cost is of Scotland going independent, let alone losing out on these types of contracts? How has the Yes campaign demonstrated to you their plans for reaching these disadvantaged groups? I am curious :)

There's worse on the the other thread Phaedra.

There's worse on the the other thread Phaedra.

Agreed

Sadly, the last thing the MSM (inc the Telegraph, hardly known for balanced reporting) is providing during this campaign is "the facts". The "facts" with ten tons of spin, and a sprinkling of propaganda on top. Please look a little further; you might not be keen on the weebluebook but it wouldn't hurt you to have a look at it, follow some links... We are all looking at propaganda, ultimately, it's a case of pick which side's "facts" you believe.

But don't imagine for a second that there are any facts at all. The only certainty if we vote Yes is that we will get gvts we choose, of whatever shade. With a No vote, there are no certainties at all, except the promises from both Labour and Tory that further austerity measures are needed, that the Barnett formula will be removed, that billions of £ will be cut from our budget, and that we will have to help fund Crossrail, London sewers, HS2 and WMD, all while hosting the last lot in our waters, 30 or so miles from our major population centre.

Bit of a "nobrainer" to me.

Wow. And the BT camp was called scaremongering and negative. Can you reference what you list as facts please? And what about your EU comments as well? Where is the reference for that?

As for the Telegraph, well there's further evidence the Yes camp will not listen to reason. Not that I think it will help either but here is another article from the FT. But there's probably a reason there too that you'd reject it as it doesn't provide the moonshine so many in the Yes camp are addicted to.

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/ff9344d4-39fc-11e4-8aa2-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3D9L6lrEh

That Rory Bremner article was very nice I thought.

Old lady I didn't post the Rory Bremner article as "fact" . It is an emotional piece.

The wee blue book is so far removed from fact one might as well look to the UKIP web site to get facts on immigration.

And no I for one am not looking at the wee blue book. How in any way shape or form is a document produced specifically for the Yes campaign going to be neutral?

Independent sources is all that is reliable.

Which shipyards in England are equipped to service Trident, (which requires particularly deep waters) and to store the requisite missiles? How much capital investment will this require, and which areas of England are prepared to accept the risk of a nuclear accident?

"Losing out" on/getting shot of Trident is a major reason people are voting Yes.

You really didn't do your homework, Livingzuid, and I'm sorry you now find yourself in such a difficult situation.

spiritedwolf forgot to say hear hear to your earlier post :) the BT campaign has not been well run on many fronts but it is so true that we are better together rather than isolated and arguing.

Yawn. Devonport for one. Portsmouth for another. If you dug a little deeper beyond your wee blue book then you'd find all the information you need.

I think that's a bit rude OldLady. She didn't say that shipyards are ready to take the subs, just that they are preparing to bid for that contract. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

And I did my homework plenty good thanks :) and I'm also very confident it will be a No vote on Thursday. Still can't provide me with references or facts either can you? All talk and no substance is the sum total of the Yes campaign.

I also think you'll find many people are also voting Yes to get rid of the beloved SNP rather than something which has such a limited impact in one small part of the country.

Livingzuid, if you won't read anything other than MSM, you're not reading neutral stuff anyway. As for the rest of my assertions, have a look at past party conferences, and statements from party leaders.

Have a look at IDS saying all the "new" devo offers are, well, bollocks, have a look at the HoL saying today that any "devo" stuff would first have to be validated by a referendum to rUK, have a look at Gordon Brown (back bench Labour MP with no power whatsoever) "promising", "guaranteeing" devomax... Have a look back to 1979, when we were promised "further powers" that took another 20 years to aquire...

There is no such thing as an "independent" source, you just have to choose how much bullshit you filter our.

I'm a back to the source data kind of person Livingzuid which I suspect is probably what you meant by independent. It's hard to find 100% unbiased but there are certainly much better options than wings.

Dan Snow said something earlier this year that stuck in my head.

Salmond is so interested in fairness & equality that he won't share oil from the north of an island with people who live in the south of it

That's what we are on the global scale. An island. Lucky enough to find a natural resource that's useful and worth something. And people in one part are arguing whether we should share that wealth with people living a bit further south.

Wings... which states boldly about a lack of Scottish ownership of the media on posters and pamphlets and fails to mention he's telling us how to vote from Bath?

I think I might be more inclined to believe Deutsche Bank than the wee blue book.

Deutsche Bank, the investment bank, has said that Scottish independence would be a colossal mistake. It released a paper on the topic from David Folkerts-Landau, its chief economist. He said:
Everyone has the right to self determination and to exercise his or her democratic rights. But there are times when fundamental political decisions have negative consequences far beyond what voters and politicians could have imagined. We feel that we are the threshold of one such moment. A “Yes” vote for Scottish independence on Thursday would go down in history as a political and economic mistake as large as Winston Churchill’s decision in 1925 to return the pound to the Gold Standard or the failure of the Federal Reserve to provide sufficient liquidity to the US banking system, which we now know brought on the Great Depression in the US. These decisions – well-intentioned as they were – contributed to years of depression and suffering and could have been avoided had alternative decisions been taken ...

Most importantly, the world as it is evolving in the 21st century is a highly uncertain place with unstable geopolitics and a stressed economic and financial outlook. Why anyone would want to exit a successful economic and political union with a G-5 country – a union which another part of Europe so desperately seeks to emulate – to go it alone for the benefit of ... what exactly, is incomprehensible to this author.

Statements from party leaders is again not independent sourcing. And why would MSM be my only source?

I rather like the Union as it is which is why I am voting no. I see a better future for my baby with it as part of the whole rather than independent. I have sympathy for the genuine Yes campaign which is trying to have its voice heard above the SNP din. For their sakes I hope it is a close No to force the debate further, but beyond that all I hear is nationalist caterwauling that has no place in modern society.

Alex Salmond has said this country can be independent, with all that entails, with EU membership, in eighteen months, for 250 million. And you're complaining that Westminster is full of shit?

If you did "all your homework", and are so sure of a No vote next week, what was all the "woe is me!" about in your first post, living? Surely your homework would have shown you the grassroots movement, which might have put a teeny, weeny doubt into your head?

And your homework might also have shown you that the good people of Devonport don't have the facilities, and the good people of Portsmouth are none too keen either. The latest suggestion, of Fallmouth, has the citizens up in arms.

And your costs for these would be...?