Indyref8

[grovel]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

Any Yes ladies out there interested in a late 40s idealist? My husband could be available soon.

I know Phaedra. :(

It's not one sector of the economy that have spoken out against independance, several of the oil companies (who iScotland seem to be depending on for their financial future) have spoken out against independance.

Personally I think far more telling than what 'might' happen is what has already happened. Following polls showing a yes vote in the lead the value of the pound fell to a 10 month low and vast amounts were wiped of the value of businesses with a large Scottish interest.

Surely that is a hint as to what will happen in the event of an actual yes vote. Terrifying.

OOAOML not this time, already have one snoring upstairs ( won't be long behind him).

Like someone said up thread, although I have opposing views to you No people, I still enjoy the debate we're having, and appreciate your posts and research. I hope we can keep it up after the 18th. I like that it gets heated, shows a bit of passion.

squoosh don't know if you'll see this but I did laugh at the no campaigner stereotype sitting "feet up with a slice of battenburg".

It was a bakewell slice actually!

Oil companies may speak out but they recover oil from some of the biggest shitholes on the planet. They don't give a shit as long as they're making money. UK government (I'm thinking when G Brown was on the go) have done the best they can to fuck off these companies with the taxes levied. There will be short downturns then it's as mad as ever.

Gee that's a lot of swearing, I better say night, night.

It's also not just about the industries which have said they'll go. It's all the other jobs which depend upon the income those businesses bring in to the local economy. Shops, hairdressers, cleaners, childcare providers, painter decorators, plumbers, estate agents, lawyers, taxi drivers, restaurants...There will be a knock on effect to numerous other industries in the local areas. And of course, there's the 21/22% of the Scottish population which is employed in the public sector. How are we going to afford them if the private sector companies shift?

Wish I had cake I was canvassing tonight and didn't eat till 10. Spoke to quite a few people that have already sent in postal votes for No

I'm not entirely sure I follow this but cross-border pension fund deficits seem to be another problem. (This is not the firm I work for)

thinkandtalkwithtods.com/2014/09/10/briefing-the-scottish-independence-debate-and-pensions/

Without arsing about looking for info, yup cross border pensions are a huge issue as (EU?) rules require that all cross border schemes must be fully funded. Most of the big final salary schemes aren't. So they would need to either get the money to make them fully funded, or they would have to create separate Scottish and UK pension funds which is very expensive and complex.

You'd think from that statement Scotland had indeed been oppressed in a way similar as the black majority in South Africa.

Phaedra - have you read the history of the Highlands and Islands from the early 1800s onwards? Perhaps not directly comparable but let's just say that the near-extinction of an entire culture through legislation and neglect, mass-scale evictions and massive de-population, feudal landlords suppressing development right up till today, and the turning of a blind-eye by the Westminster establishment have felt like oppression to a great deal of people. The advent of devolution has brought new confidence to this area, and independence could do even more.

You can argue about the economics. I happen not to agree with the nay-sayers as I believe that an independent Scotland would prosper because we could grow our economy in a stratetic and targeted way which would not be possible under WM. Even David Cameron has said that we can be a successful small country.

However, the central issue is not about the economics. It's a fundamental question: why should Scotland not make its own decisions? Why should it be governed by a larger neighbour with different needs and aspirations? Why should Scotland not be trusted to govern itself like other countries around the world. What makes us so different that we could or should not do this?

It would be impossible not to have heard of The Clearances but to compare that to Apartheid South Africa is , I'm sorry to say this because you are a nice person, over- dramatic. It is not remotely comparable.

Scotland really needs to get over the Clearances.

I have read the rest of your post but what you describe does not resonate with my experience of living in Scotland in any way.

Phaedra
I think if you knew more about the situation in the Highlands and Islands, you would not write off the Clearances like that. It is not by chance that there are more people living abroad who claim Scottish ancestry than the current population of Scotland. Do not think that the immense swathes of empty land up here were always like that.

I do not like to get hung up on the past but you cannot escape the fact that generations of people in the Highlands and Islands have suffered economically and culturally because of a combination, at different times, of official persecution, neglect, ignorance and the turning of a blind eye on the part of the UK government . My family were among many families cleared to coastal land which was so poor that some of the local young men in the 1880s testified to an official commission examining the plight of the crofting counties that they could not afford to get married and have a family. That is not ancient history. My grandfather was born in that township in the 1880s.

Things are changing now. There is a new confidence and an appetite for making our own decisions.

PS: thanks for the compliment (though maybe not the "over-dramatic" bit!)!

Can I just say to my fellow no voters.

Your questions you posted for the live web chat to AS were bloody marvellous.

Why can't the idiots on Newnight ask these questions? These are the questions I want answered! (Did they answer them?)

Went out canvassing last night. A number if undecideds about still and the reasons they were leaning to yes was because they "don't like Boris Johnson".

So do any yes voters want to take a stab at my question about whether there are any countries that have gone from having a decent level of benefits and services (Scotland now) to experiencing a significant period of austerity (as the Credit Suisse report predicts) to back to an even better level of benefits and services (thus meeting the aims and hopes of many yes voters)?

My worry is that during the austerity period, the expectations of what the state does and should deliver get completely reset and the end result will be a much leaner and meaner Scotland. Are there some positive examples of countries out there where this hasn't happened?

sconequeen what on earth have the clearances got to do with the referendum?

I know Salmond tells shocking blatant lies, but even he cannot turn back time.

What form will the 2016 elections take? Will it be PR, FPTP? I can't remember ever seeing the answer to this

UK spending is up because our national debt is still increasing along with the debt payments we have to make towards that debt.

Here's the debt clock
www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk

Cambio it will be the same combination of fptp and pr that we had for all the other Scottish parliaments.

Plastic

There's this but it's more about the extra that needs to be spent on benefits with austerity policies putting people out of work!

Stupid question, will we not be in a similar situation where lots of people don't get the government they voted for but on a smaller scale? Ie if SNP remains in? I don't know many people voted for them or would vote for them yet we're stuck with Salmond in charge?

Plastic- I do think you have a good point though.

With the ageing population no option is going to deliver the level of state provision of services that we had in the 60s/70s.

Only once the baby boomers have gone and we don't have a top heavy population pyramid anymore can we look towards truly increasing public services again.

I think the question isn't so much about increasing public services but about what decisions we make about what we keep and what we stop. Ie quite a lot of 'benefits' (I mean that in it's widest sense) don't go to the most vulnerable but to people who don't need them. Things like free bus passes and tv licences spring to mind.

I'd rather our public provision was more targeted on the most in need but without over cumbersome and off putting means testing administrative systems.

Cambio the Scottish parliament is designed to deliver coalition governments. The first 2 were labour lib dem coalitions.

In the future we could have various coalitions of snp labour lib dem green Tory socialists independents.

Cambio- I imagine Nicola will be leading the snp into the 2016 election. She is much more popular than as.