Indyref8

[grovel]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

OK. So the way I see it. All politicians are liars. They say whatever it takes to get/stay I'm power. The White Paper is a dream that may never come true. Further devolution is a power that may never come true. We can trust no-one.

The only certainty unless WM plays really dirty is that with a Yes vote Scotland will be governed by those who live here. And that certainty is good enough for me - thats all I really want.

Wasn't directed at you however now you mention it I think your tone, at times, has been mocking but that's my interpretation.

The only posts I have mocked - and it's not been subtle - are those claiming we are plants/from a secret facebook group. That's been mocked mercilessly and rightly so.

Your interpretation is incorrect, I don't think I have mocked anyone in these threads.

There's no substance to any of that!

I'll file them next to the White Paper then

Was only linking because you said there was nothing available!

I'm also not impressed by any of this "foreigner" chat MPs and the press are hitting out with. What's so terrible about being a "foreigner"? I've got nothing against 'foreigners', thanks very much. Speaks volumes about decades of anti-immigration rhetoric in WM.

Issued by people who can't even implement any of it!

I don't want to agree that all politicians are liars. But I think there is variations of the truth in politics. I think many people come into politics for honorable reasons, to make things better. And some come in to have power. Those two worlds can never collide without fallout

Issuing a document saying what you would like to do if a vote went a particular way...what, like the White Paper?!

I think it's more that I certainly don't believe that the WM politicians are any worse/more likely to be telling whoppers than the SG ones. There are some people who go in to politics for good and altruistic reasons. There are some who are power crazed. And everyone else is somewhere in between!

I think many people come into politics for honorable reasons, to make things better. And some come in to have power. Those two worlds can never collide without fallout

Totally agree - although I'd add that some of the honorable ones become corrupted by the power they find themselves holding and go off the rails

At least, though, there's this to be said for the "you promised us more powers" / "no, it was never a formal commitment" argument: It gives the "everything's the fault of Westminster" crowd something else to berate them for

Yup, therefore the only certainty is whether Scotland rules itself or not. We have to base that decision based on educated guesses, as there are no "facts" that can't be refuted by the other side.

starwarslegoboy, that's a very fair point. I worked for an MP at WM. He, and the other MPs I got to know, were fundamentally decent people wanting to make a difference.

Government proved a whole lot trickier than any of them realised. The levers of power are really clunky.

I agree Stat.

Interesting debate with young people on C4 news just now.

Debate on C4 at the - Is it Eastwood High in East Ren?

Humza needs to give her a chance to speak!

And therein lies the rub!

Just wanted to say thank you to all the posters on here and confirm that there are undecided voters reading these threads. Obsessively in my case. Particularly want to thank its all going to be alright and statistically for really detailed and interesting posts. Also mrs curly for yesterday's link to the carol craig article and a yesser -someone who is an economic historian for a thought provoking point about whether a no means no country can ever hope for change. Really impressed with those who have taken so much time to post interesting links. Mumsnet is normally mindless fluff for me but many of the posts on here have been really thought provoking.

mo'..

Think it must be - all those hanging cubes - A brand new building. all that contemporary way

Also loving how David gets the swearing out for the Scots. Effing..... ooooh!

Just wanted to say thank you to all the posters on here and confirm that there are undecided voters reading these threads.

Yay! Glad to know its not just arguing on a wee bubble for thread after thread after thread....

Well said Beatrice . There has been some brilliant quality healthy debate on here!! I'm glad to be part if it even though my posts are far too emotional and v one sided (sorry yes folk ) the quality of debate was especially good yesterday.

Thanks beatricequimby. Are there any big issues for you, anything that's making you waiver?