Indyref8

[grovel]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

Good afternoon

Not been online since Sunday (working and canvassing) - haven't things moved on since then...?!

I am Scottish and WM represents me.

WM may represent you if you happened to vote Tory or LibDem (though lots of LibDems didn't bargain for what they've got). However, WM does not represent the electoral results in Scotland; it represents the electoral results of the UK as a whole. And that's the problem. We are a small country governed by a larger neighbour with different priorities and needs. This our chance to change that, and have a government reflecting the needs and aspirations of the people of Scotland.

By the way, fellow Yessers - great canvassing results in this neck of the woods, and increasing numbers of people getting involved actively in the campaign. If you're not doing it already, get out there and speak to people, leaflet or canvass. We can do this!

I can't help thinking this is a failing in the Scottish education system. People should come out of school with a rough grasp of how democracies work, not just their own, and the lessons of history. They should also have an awareness of basic constitutional requirements, such as a second chamber and the separation of judiciary, legislature and administrative function

Chelsy, why is this specifically a failing of the Scottish education system? Do you find MNers from other countries more informed on their political systems?

The UK democracy is determined by Seats, not votes. Your figures are accurate and that might be altered by electoral l reform, but that's not going to happen soon is it, as it suits the two main parties.

The reason that SNP have been gaining ground for many years is that WM did not have a mandate to govern in Scotland. The exception recently was New Labour, and it was hopeful for a while.
But....Now, Labour are finished. Finished off by the lie that they created the financial meltdown, pushed by what is now the Coalition party. Scotland is destined to be ruled by the increasingly right wing SE of England. UKIP are determining the agenda. Who should I vote for to represent my interests do you think?

Since when was a second chamber a "basic constitutional requirement"? Norway, Denmark and Sweden (amongst others) are unicameral legislatures. No sign of constitutional crisis.

Piffle.

And here's William Hague telling us that giving Scotland additional powers in the event of a No vote is not government policy and "akin to a statement in a general election campaign".

Corey Chelsy, why is this specifically a failing of the Scottish education system? Do you find MNers from other countries more informed on their political systems?

Yes, absolutely I do.

Starwarswhatitboy you do write a load of tosh. I've read some tosh from some on here (Tommy Sheridan being fanciable was the most idiotic), but to compare Scotland with dictatorships where people are bombed and barely have enough food to feed their families on a daily basis is pathetic and whiny. How embarrassing in a country which has a welfare state so generous that people from those very countries are desperate to get here. Are you not ashamed at your selfishness in not realising how lucky you are to live here?

I can't for the life of me understand why people would wish to turn a country where you have peace, a decent standard of living, relative autonomy and a successful union and security offered by a big player in the UK, for independence at the cost of all of that and more, to turn Scotland into a tiny unimportant country, which will have to accede to all other large countries' wishes if it ever did get into the EU.

That goal seems ever more unlikely, bearing in mind the EU and the Single Market are based on neo-liberalism and unfettered access to the market, and the economic conditions for membership that might apply.

So I agree with the economist that it would be more like Slovakia. Personally, I would say Lithuania or Latvia, but I guess Slovakia has plenty of depopulation issues as well.

*Corey Chelsy, why is this specifically a failing of the Scottish education system? Do you find MNers from other countries more informed on their political systems?

Yes, absolutely I do*

I disagree, Chelsy. There are plenty of very well-informed Scottish MNers on this thread, on both sides. Do you think such women are rare? Why do you feel this way?

I'm wholly unimpressed at the idea that there wouldn't be a second chamber in an independent Scotland. Who'll keep an eye on the people at Holyrood?

"As an aside - the Thatcher/Major years saw Scotland with 22 Con seats, dwindling down to 11 by 1992. Not saying that I agree with the politics of the time, or the parties or anything because it was before my time (1997 was only the second GE in my lifetime), but it was hardly forced upon a fair proportion of Scots."

Yes, Neville. The Tory party did hold 22 seats in 1979 (and bear in mind that they only managed 16 in 1974) but the Labour party doubled this with 44 seats. And yet of course there followed four terms of a Conservative Government, when Scottish constituencies consistently returned a Labour vote.

Any well educated Scottish Mumsnetters will have come through the Scottish education system before this lot got their hands on it.

Chelsy

And all you do is produce insults. And you clearly have problems with comprehension of reading matter. I did not compare dictatorships with people having enough food. You do not care what I think, and that's fine, but do fuck off with your insults when you quite clearly can't take the time to read another's point of view.

I am ashamed of nothing. but I will not ask for your thanks while I stand up for democratic values.

Criseyde Since when was a second chamber a "basic constitutional requirement"? Norway, Denmark and Sweden (amongst others) are unicameral legislatures. No sign of constitutional crisis.

So was did the Soviet Union. Did you watch the video I linked on the Scottish Parliament taking legal advice from a Proffessor of Law at Glasgow University and how he was silenced when he started saying stuff the SNP chairperson didn't like? If you need, I will link you to it again, but I would hope that you would have familiarised yourself with it.

The trouble is that Scotland's committee system has already shown itself prone to bias, and that is very disappointing, because it is very new. Scotland simply doesn't have any proper constitutional checks and balances on the abuse of power. I did actually look to see how this was addressed in the White Paper. It wasn't. You already have allegations which go uninvestigated in relation to the influence of government on the judiciary (removal of the need for corroboration, dropping of certain cases "not in the public interest". Courts are being closed and cases moved to secretive tribunals, which I would hope would be public in practice, since that is one of the main tenets of the ECHR.

Would you like to tell me just who do you complain to and how do you do it if your rights are abused by the Scottish state?

Corey I disagree, Chelsy. There are plenty of very well-informed Scottish MNers on this thread, on both sides. Do you think such women are rare? Why do you feel this way?

Don't make up things I didn't say. My point is that there are also a worrying number of totally uniformed people around in Scotland who have also been raised with no motivation to think for themselves, and who will believe whatever they are told. I don't think you do get so much of that in other countries. Its not that there aren't intelligent, well informed people in Scotland, its just that nearly everyone should be like that and not such a proportion that are not.

Scotland doesn't do well on the Pisa comparative tables, so that would seem to bear it out. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading at times. Its also incredibly intolerant of opposing views. That makes me really uncomfortable. Nothing wrong with holding non-mainstream views, but criticising the views of others in abusive terms is worrying.

Any well educated Scottish Mumsnetters will have come through the Scottish education system before this lot got their hands on it

Rose, that's really unfair. You're saying the kids my sister is teaching now and those my mother spent her whole career teaching are doomed to idiocy after a certain point? I know teachers are being squeezed hard with the whole Nats business but a good teacher is a good teacher.

*uniformed! Freudian slip! I would hope matters haven't reached that stage just yet.

uninformed

Nothing wrong with holding non-mainstream views, but criticising the views of others in abusive terms is worrying

You mean like you do on a regular basis? Yes, we're all complicit in the jobs-for-the-boys, Stasi-led, woman-hating police state which you perceive. Of course with Edinburgh City Council as the Seventh Circle of Hell and an infernal fire blazing beneath the tram-scarred Princes Street.

DH has got an interview in Holland. Surprised he got one so quickly, but then he does work in one of those sectors that the Scottish Government say they want to retain as they are in demand. Not sure if this job will be a goer but he might as well attend the interview and find out.

We are both pretty sickened by some of the stuff we have heard recently, and are in agreement that we need to get out, just in case. I hope we can sell our house. We have no desire to stay in a country which might or might not be not as good as the one we currently live in in 20 years time, by which time we will be in our sixties. We also have no motivation to pay massive taxes for the dubious privilege of living there, as we already pay a lot of tax. We just want to live in a peaceful, settled country which doesn't change from one day to the next.

"I know all I was trying to point out was that it wasn't a clean cut situation where no one in Scotland was represented in parliament at that time."

Well clearly a proportion, even a tiny proportion, of voters may feel represented if they happen to get the government that they, personally, voted for in WM. But the fact remains that the majority of voters in Scottish constituencies are only ever represented in WM on the occasions when voters in rUK happen to vote in the same way. The impact of Scottish constituencies on WM elections is barely marginal. That's indisputable.

Santana's view that, "Your vote does count. The vote of an individual in the SE of England counts just as much as yours does." may seem well intentioned but is simply not true. Governments are not elected by popular vote, and votes in different constituencies do not carry the same weight under a FPTP system. This means that all campaigning and policy is geared towards a tiny number of swing voters in marginal constituencies, none of which are in Scotland.

At the same time, I agree with Chelsy in that Scottish Conservative voters are often underrepresented in WM elections. It's an outdated, unsophisticated system that isn't really very good at representing anyone in Scotland.

Chelsy, I watched your video and I see what you are getting at. I'm not saying that a discussion about the need for a Second Chamber is not worth having but to claim that a second chamber is a "basic constitutional requirement" is nonsense.

Incidentally, I hope you are equally concerned about the lack of need for corroboration in English law, because it has never existed there. Similarly, I hope you have been aghast at Theresa May's attempts to pull the UK out of the EHCR.

The results of the latest Survation poll will be released at 10.30 this evening.

I've never looked at so many polls in my life.

I've never looked at so many polls in my life.

Me either. Rumours are this is going to be a swing back to "No"

Chelsy, I watched your video and I see what you are getting at. I'm not saying that a discussion about the need for a Second Chamber is not worth having but to claim that a second chamber is a "basic constitutional requirement" is nonsense.

Thank you for that. I thought it was utterly appalling that someone (the SNP chairperson) should behave like that in public, never mind in government. It is incredibly shocking.

English law is based on common law and has an entirely different set of procedural and evidential rules than Scots law. I am horrified at the statements about leaving the EU and the ECHR, however it might also be sabre rattling, which is pretty typical of the UK's in its dealings with the EU every so often when it wants to renegotiate opt outs and better attempts. And one things for certain about independence - Scotland definitely would not be a signatory to the ECHR - the White Paper recognises this, nor a member of the EU. It might take years, I don't want to spend the next 10 or 12 years of my life in a situation like that.

Chelsy

the White Paper recognises this

The White Paper is the SNP's manifesto. It is not a blueprint for the next x number of years beyond Independence. Once we have an independent government, we will be able to vote for the parties and policies we want.

Criseyde

Very reasoned post. I agree with the point made earlier, sorry, meant to reply to Squatting, about the representation in the earlier Thatchers years. But it was 10/11 out of 72 votes in the last two Tory terms, not that they had anywhere near a mandate in the previous two. I'd love them to change the Electoral system, but there's no way Labour or Tories will and so it is not credible to quote the individual vote numbers.

For some Tory princess to suggest I do not understand the political system pretty much sums up why I don't want to be governed by the fuckers. I mean, darhling, isn't the State system failing our children? Thank Goodness for Fettes yes?