Indyref8

[grovel]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

Scotland does not get the government it votes for. It doesn't matter how I vote. That's not democracy

starwars which I hope is what more devolution and a radical reform of the Scottish//English relationship will deliver - a powerful Scottish Govt that represents Scotland, and still has influence in Westminster for the shared responsibilities of defence, foreign affairs, etc.

starwars which I hope is what more devolution and a radical reform of the Scottish//English relationship will deliver - a powerful Scottish Govt that represents Scotland, and still has influence in Westminster for the shared responsibilities of defence, foreign affairs, etc

That would be fantastic, and personally I would be pretty happy with that. But I do not believe for a second that it will happen.

Very disappointing web chat.

Scotland does not get the government it votes for. It doesn't matter how I vote. That's not democracy

So you think that out of 63 million, a minority- 5.5 million- ought to get to choose the government? Is that democracy?

What
But sadly I don't think it will happen now. We're not getting DevoMax, I just can't see how the politics of it would work while not completely pissing of the rUK. I think we will get bugger all, except perhaps being 'allowed' to raise income taxes.

Sanata
I expect my vote to count in my own country, not to be ruled by the whims of the SE England. Which is why DevoMax would have cut it. But now we just have Independence ... or Not.

The SE is not a country on it's own, it is a region.

I expect my vote to count in my own country, not to be ruled by the whims of the SE England.

Your vote does count.

The vote of an individual in the SE of England counts just as much as yours does.

ItsAll

Agreed. I would LOVE DevoMax to be offered and guaranteed now. That would be Problem Solved!!! Hurray! But it's not and it won't

Which is why i only have one choice left. And then it will probably still be a No win

There are 84 MPs in SE England and 73 in Greater London. Out of a total of 650.

Yes Squatting but even trying to ignore the fact that New Labour were a bunch of charlatans, and agreeing that we had representation during their tenure but none for the previous 20 years, there is little doubt that Labour now are completely finished, and especially in Scotland. And there is really no solution in sight.

As I've said, I'm not a natural Nationalist - DH is - I've actually argued this with him for years. But I am resigned to voting Yes, simply because, for me, I can see no alternative. And having resigned myself to it, I have embraced the idea that we need to get on with it and work on our country.

There are 84 MPs in SE England and 73 in Greater London.

Respective populations 8.6million in 2011 and 8.3 million in 2013.

prettybird squidgymummy and me just got name checked on R5 live

So you think that out of 63 million, a minority- 5.5 million- ought to get to choose the government? Is that democracy?

No. Not all. In terms of representation per head of population it is fair. The problem is geographically most of the population is in S England, so obviously most policies are tailored for that area of the country. The solution is much more devolution within England too, so geographical areas have more power to tailor things to their particular area/issues.

Unfortunately, that is not on the table so independence for Scotland it shall have to be. Hopefully, this may show WM unlikely that a different way is possible, and regions in England could get more devolved powers.

Which is nearly a quarter of the seats. We have 59, used to be 72.

• I Tory, 11 Lib Dems, 6 SNP, Labour 40

I am aware of population concentrations to seats ratios. But it is not democracy in Scotland if you know you will never get the government you vote for.

But it is not democracy in Scotland if you know you will never get the government you vote for.

An odd statement to make about a country whose parliament is designed to make achieving a majority very difficult!

Democracy doesn't mean getting the government that you as an individual vote for. It means so much more.

Can't believe I missed most of the last thread and you are so far on with this one!

Have to go and get more work done after skiving a bit for the webchat thread, but the R5 thing sounds interesting, were they actually talking about and quoting MN?

Anyway, marking my place for later - for all the new people who may not know me, I'm a No, but I hope I'm nice and get on reasonably well with a fair few of the Yes people.

Scotland does not get the government it votes for. It doesn't matter how I vote. That's not democracy

Democracy isn't about getting the government you for. Its about sharing the choice of other people, and accepting that choice.

Most people don't agree on their choice of government, and so won't get the government they vote for either. Far, far more people voted for other parties than the SNP, but we have them in government.

I'm not keen on the single transferable vote either. It depends on voting for parties you may not want to vote for as second, etc. choices.

Who mentioned majority? A mandate would be acceptable . Scotland's government has a mandate from the Scots. WM government does not.

I don't accept that a small section of England determines my government is democracy You might, I don't.

Snap SantanaLopez. I can't help thinking this is a failing in the Scottish education system. People should come out of school with a rough grasp of how democracies work, not just their own, and the lessons of history. They should also have an awareness of basic constitutional requirements, such as a second chamber and the separation of judiciary, legislature and administrative function.

Scotland's government has a mandate from the Scots. WM government does not.

I am Scottish and WM represents me.

Do you know what a mandate is? This is the core principle of the independence debate. Please desist with the 'failing of the education system' crap. Which introduction to politics have you just looked up?

Who mentioned majority? A mandate would be acceptable . Scotland's government has a mandate from the Scots. WM government does not.

So you would just dismiss 412,000 Scots because they didn't vote like you? That doesn't sound very representative or democratic to me. What would you do with them? Ethnically cleanse them?

Again, a closer examination of the facts reveals that in Scotland in the last General Election, the Conservatives polled 412,000 votes but only got 1 seat, the Lib Dems 465,000 and they got 11 seats, and the SNP 419,000 with 6 seats. Its quite clear that it is Scottish Conservative voters that are under-represented at Westminster. But don't let get facts get in the way of intolerance and entrenched attitudes.