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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref8

999 replies

grovel · 09/09/2014 17:36

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

OP posts:
StatisticallyChallenged · 10/09/2014 10:02

It appears that the answer to my question is that yes, engagement does only count when it's on your side. Otherwise it will be ridiculed.

Great. Thanks for that.

CKDexterHaven · 10/09/2014 10:02

I'm embarrassed. Embarrassed, mortified, ashamed, horrified etc by the sheer stupidity of 51% of my fellow Scots (going by the Sunday poll)

Oh look, another 'Yes' voters are stupid and shameful comment.

PhaedraIsMyName · 10/09/2014 10:02

People are scared for a very good reason. Not the least of which is being led by a man who told that lie about having a legal opinion on the EU.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:03

Do you really think anyone is going to change from yes or undecided to no because of that Phaedra?

Keep harping on about it.

Go have your cup of tea, have a wee think about the McCrone Report and westminster's lies which actually cost Scotland our manufacturing industry, our devolution, our health then come back and keep harping on about something that no one cares about.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:04

Yes because WM politicians never lie.

Hmm

Tony Blair.

Iraq.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/09/2014 10:05

Weatherall did or did not Eck lie in Parliament that he had a legal opinion on the EU?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042069

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:05

A lie that cost hundreds of British soldiers lives.

God knows how many Iraqi civilians.

And now the rise of IS.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:06

That's the kind of lie people in Scotland care about.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:07

The BBC is a WM propaganda machine.

Do you not have better than that?

Why did WM hide the McCrone report until 2005?

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:07

What are WM hiding now?

AnnieHoo · 10/09/2014 10:11

Yes Whetherall I think people do decide to vote No when they realise that Alex Salmond paid £20000 to keep it secret. He will say anything.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html

StatisticallyChallenged · 10/09/2014 10:11

Frankie I understand your fears for the future , believe me. But I'd really like if we could try to avoid any posts which might be seen as inflammatory about the 'other side ' :) there are still lots of undecided people and plenty of them are probably reading anonymously. It would be better if they could see reasoned argument and facts to help support their decision. We have lots of them on our side!

IssyDee · 10/09/2014 10:22

I'm sure some people have already answered these questions, but the problem is that many of them don't have definitive answers because there is no law or precedent that makes them clear cut, it's going to be down to negotiation. I'll tell you what I know in lieu of someone else who maybe has some detailed answers:

The answer to all of the questions asked by oddcommentator depend on what the negotiations agreeing the legal definition of an post-UK scotland AND the remainder UK

Either Scotland and rUK agree that they are both 'continuing states'
Or they agree that Scotland is a 'successor state' and the UK is the continuing state.

This is the crux of the 'information/disinformation' argument. The UK can't force one outcome or the other, it is in the interests of both parties to come to agreement on what would be best.

If Scotland is a continuing state:

  1. All UK assets including currency, the Bank of England (the bank of the UK), gold reserves and oil will be divided between the two.
  2. All UK liabilities including debt will also be divided between the two
  3. As two continuing states, Scotland and rUK are already members of the EU, if one has to go through a period of red tape to renegotiate their membership, the other continuing state also has to renegotiate EU membership as both states go forward with the same legal status.
  4. NATO membership would also continue as both rUK and Scotland are continuing states.

Both rUK and Scotland become/remain the same legal entity and both continue within treaties and within groups that they already hold membership

If Scotland is agreed to be a successor state:

  1. Currency - As confirmed by Darling, no one can stop Scotland using sterling with sterlingisation, this is exactly what Denmark does in pegging its currency against the euro and its economy is robust (my understanding is that this option is actually preferable to a formal currency union). Mark Carney said (as far back as October) that a formal currency union was possible but then UK would dictate much of Scotland's fiscal policy so that negotiation is about balancing the benefits of cross border trade. It's in the interests of rUK to negotiate in their best interests which include balancing their cross border trade, which makes up a substantial part of the UK balance sheet, so it's unlikely in the event of negotiations that they wouldn't actually form currency union because they also want...
  2. Debt - the debt was serviced by the UK. A successor state HAS no debt, so there's nothing to renege on. Money markets don't have morals and a successor state Scotland would be starting afresh with an economy that generates a surplus. I doubt there would be any problems investing or lending to a new state with the track record Scotland has - the rUK on the other hand is would be even worse off
  3. EU - there'd be an administrative period to get into the EU - former head of EU says there'd be no problem with EU membership, some with vested interests like Spain say it wouldn't happen. In a realpolitik situation it would depend on negotiations to see what is bluster and propaganda and what actually transpires. Scotland is a solvent nation with a good strategic position, the EU would benefit from a relationship. However, the EU also needs reform, so the benefits of being in the EU need scrutiny and perhaps there's a case for pushing reform of the EU using the Scotland/UK situation in a way to benefit both Scotland and rUK. Norway isn't in the EU and yet is booming and trade between the other Scandinavian nations is barely affected by being out of the eurozone and also by change of currency. The UK is taking a referendum to leave the EU in 2018, so perhaps neither UK or Scotland would want to be in the EU as it is - perhaps there is a better arrangement for the states within the British Isles and Europe.
  4. Nato - Not all nato members have nukes. It's not a condition of entry.

Neither scenario is terrible for Scotland. The second scenario isn't good for rUK so is it likely they'll negotiate for that, or for the first scenario?

What people say in a campaign isn't what they'll say when the chips are down. This proved by the 11th hour breaking of purdah by telling the people that Devo Max is on offer if they vote no. It isn't, it isn't on the ballot and it isn't on the cards.

In a real negotiating scenario the UK will protect its own interests and go back on every threat on currency and trade. It's just posturing, their negotiating position isn't strong enough.

BakerStreetSaxRift · 10/09/2014 10:23

I was never rude or aggressive. I never have been. And I've never seen any No poster being rude and aggressive

deeedeee, actually you were very rude to me a few threads back after I said I was concerned about the economy and energy supply in an iScotland. I avoided posing for a while.

Raintown · 10/09/2014 10:24

Weatherall Please stop going on about the 'illegal' Iraq war. In hindsight it was clearly a mistake (more in the follow-up than the actual conflict), but I believe a well-intentioned one, which the majority of Iraqis suffering under Saddam's tyranny supported.

No one has a better track record than Britain in Just wars.

Without our interventions and enormous sacrifices in men & materiel (the financial cost of which still affects us today) it's unlikely we'd have the freedom & democracy to engage in this discussion.

StatisticallyChallenged · 10/09/2014 10:25

Interestingly issydee, I saw an article yesterday from 'lawyers for yes' where they acknowledged that the UK would almost certainly be seen as the continuing state.

Purdah hasn't been broken as it doesn't apply to political parties and they've been careful to present it as from the parties not the government

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:28

Stat- in response to your response to my question about poverty, I would just say exactly the same but reverse the sides iykwim?

I think the UK economy is hurtling towards another crash and that this will have a terrible impact on the most vulnerable.

60% of WM austerity cuts have still to come in.

Does that not frighten you?

Scottish people have already suffered enough from austerity- it's time for this neoliberal lunacy to stop.

Voting yes is the only solution.

Voting labour at the ge won't help as they have said they will follow the same austerity agenda.

WildThong · 10/09/2014 10:30

We are in thread 8 of a highly emotional subject and there have been a handful of deletions, this is to our credit I think. Weatherall, as far as I am aware, you still need to give LadyC an apology for calling her a liar.
You are vociferous about name calling and Yessers being hounded out. I asked you way back which posters have been hounded out and I still wait for an answer. I have been here since post 1 of thread 1 and the same people are posting regularly with additional comments from occasional posters. Mostly it's been great. You also reference the Nazi comment over and over again. It was deleted and me and other Nos spoke out against it, can you please be honest and acknowledge the truth of that.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:32

Not having these supposed 'new' powers dangled around like some kind of shiny toy the grotto Santa promises before Christmas coming from government is exactly what makes them lack credibility.

I hope no one falls for it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/09/2014 10:33

Great post IssyDee Flowers

prettybird · 10/09/2014 10:34

I challenged Roseformeplease when she stated that if you "cared for education, health, anything really....you would vote No". Hmm

People are voting either Yes or No because they do care and no-one, on either side should suggest anything else.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:35

Wild thong- lady c did lie. She refused to apologise when I called her up on it.

Lots of yes voters have complained about feeling bullied on these threads.

The no side gang up on yes supporters like vultures and cal them stupid until they disappear.

It is evidence enough that the mn survey put yes in front but that these threads are dominated by no.

EarthWindFire · 10/09/2014 10:37

Voting yes is the only solution

No it isn't people can vote no if they wish.

You are in your last post scaremongering yourself which is what you have blamed the No campaigners of, asking aren't people scared etc.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 10:37

Rain town

m.youtube.com/watch?v=CIQ8VVn8AJA

This is for you.

I think he knows more about international politics than you do.

StatisticallyChallenged · 10/09/2014 10:38

No Weatherall. You called her a liar for quoting something you said and have denied saying since. Numerous posters quoted you directly and pointed out that you were incorrect and that, whether in error or not, you had said it.