AIBU about the Calais migrants?

[Sunny67]

Having read another story today about the Calais migrants trying to get to the UK is it unreasonable to think that there are many safe countries before you get here?
Before anyone shouts racist, I'm not talking about people fleeing war zones and ending up it camps. I'm asking why people want to cross the channel and not stop in France or a previous country?

No barbarian you're right. Allowing people to die in their attempts to get here isn't a kindness is it? Kindness would be to allow them in much easier so that they don't have to risk their lives anymore.

Sam
You cannot turn up here and claim benefits. Doesn't work like that.

German benefits are very generous compared to the UK -- child benefit alone is 184 euros a month, per child until they are 18. Maternity leave is longer and better paid, childcare is heavily subsidised. You don't necessarily need to have paid into the system in Germany, if you are an EU citizen you can claim based on your contributions in your home country.

But, this is little help for non-EU migrants.

Sam it's not quite accurate to say UK benefits are just based on need -- if you are non-EU, you are not eligible for many benefits.

I think benefits tourism is a real thing for EU migrants but not really for non-EU refugees, except to the extent that they incorrectly believe they will be given lots of help.

Perhaps thee was a good offer on duty free?

This research is very interesting. Have a look at the opening pages on why asylum seekers choose to come to the UK - its not the clear choice people seem to think it is.
www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/assets/0001/5702/rcchance.pdf

e.g Less that one third of the research participants wanted to come to the UK.
The decision was often made by the Agents / Traffickers

Language wasn't a major factor as nearly half spoke little or no English.

The single biggest area of British life people knew about was football.

fullfact.org/factchecks/is_the_uks_welfare_system_the_most_generous_in_europe-27368

So Vital - give me a good reason why they should all come to the UK.

Ours schools are oversubscribed, our health system is failing, at least 50% of people already here cannot afford to buy a house, nor pay greedy landlords the 'going rate'. We just cannot keep taking more and more people into an oversubscribed society.

You give reasons on why we shouldn't let them in. It's obvious why they want to come here.

My impression is that british benefits aren't generous, they are just broadly accessed. A lot of people get them, but they don't put you in luxury.

Just a small point. The UK govt determines which countries we deem to be 'safe'. This doesn't correspond to the definition of safe that most people would use. I believe France and Italy have at times in recent decades been unsafe places to return asylum seekers to.
Additionally the onus is on the UK here to prove which country the migrant arrived from in order to persuade the third country to accept them back. That can be nigh on impossible.

Wow, a lot of patting yourselves on the back here! Did you also know the French like to eat tiny little immigrant babies for breakfast, in front of their crying mothers? We like to invite the Italian too for a bite!
FFS

I can't help thinking they would've been better off hosing them with their machine guns rather than a fire hose. Sends a much more serious message.

Eating babies you say?

I was referring to failing to comply with the Geneva Convention though.

A lot of "reversed racism" at work here. Since when is it ok to defend one group i.e aylum seekers /refugees but at the same time make vast generalisations about other countries France and Italy implying nastily that racism is part of our "national" mindset FFS

"Asylum" sorry damn typos...

OfaFrenchmind yes well put

Lady that is indeed a very interesting paper, although the sample size is small.

So basically because there are few legal routes into the country, migrants have to use illegal means, which gives traffickers a lot of say in where they end up.

I thought this was particularly relevant:

^The vast majority of research participants were working
in their country of origin and most expected that they
would be able to work in order to support themselves
and their families when they came to the UK. Very few
were aware that they would not be allowed to work
when they came to the UK. They only became aware
that this was the situation after they arrived.^

^The majority of respondents (around three quarters)
had no knowledge of welfare benefits and support
before coming to the UK. Most came from countries
lacking well-developed welfare systems and had no
expectation that they would be supported. Some were
disapproving of the welfare system. There is no
evidence that respondents consider the UK welfare
system to be more generous than that of other
countries.^

I would never say all French people are racist. I think there is quite a lot of racism within French society, as reflected in polls and voting results.

For example:

www.thelocal.fr/20140402/on-in-three-french-say-they-are-racist

That's a government survey in which more than one-third of respondents admitted to being racist. And that's just the people admitting it!

Of course there is racism in the UK as well but France does have a worse reputation in this regard, fairly earned or not.

Dreaming and Lady

I found it a fascinating paper too. The emphasis on social network is clear. As the UK has been welcoming in the past, there are established communities where which migrants can join. Amongst cultures where migration is strongest, there is a strong kinship network, so it's natural that migrants want to move to an area where their kkin are already present.

Benefit systems across Europe are not directly comparable because they are based on different foundations. Britain has what is known as a liberal benefits system. The amounts aren't high but, basically, you qualify for them because you don't have any money, you don't have to have worked to "earn" them. It's a low average amount, but an "easy" entry system.

Others operate what are known as conservative systems, which are where your benefits are based on your last income. Called conservative because they maintain social stratafication by giving more back to those who use to earn more. The Netherlands (I think - doing this from memory) operate like this, you get something like 75% of your previous salary for a year or two. So more generous in money terms, but qualification is more difficult. You get the benefits regardless of whether you have lots of money in the bank.

Germany and France (IIRC) have mandatory private insurance based systems. So you are obliged to sign up for a system, but it is not actually a government scheme and again, qualification depends on you having paid in.

Benefits in countries like the Ntherlands generally have more popular support because they help out the (voting) middle and non-marginalised working classes. While our more liberal system only really helps out the more marginalised and so becomes more of a stigma itself and is not well supported by voters.

I always wonder on these threads if the people who don't want any migrants to come in are the same people, when there is a charity thread, who say, "charity begins at home, why are we sending money to Africa?". The same people who can't see the point of Fair Trade goods.

The state of the world is partly because of colonialism, neo-colonialism, the debt crisis, the banking crisis, mono-culture forced by international institutions, our demand for cheap products, capitalism, the growth of corporation which have much more power, money and influence than governments, our interference in foreign policies, our thirst for oil... the list goes on.

If we don't want mass economic migration, maybe not acting like enormous, bullying twunts would go some way to helping. Maybe paying a fair price for our commodities would be good. Possibly making sure that the food we eat and the baubles we wear aren't produced by child slaves. You know, just to show willing...

no MrsTerry
maybe they are like me and not living in the past and apologising for something that happened way back in history.
we have a government who keeps on saying it can't afford the welfare bill as it is, who are targeting the most vulnerable.
so no I don't think we need, or can afford to have more people who will need support.
I am not going to get into charity stuff as I don't give as I can't afford it

"If we don't want mass economic migration, maybe not acting like enormous, bullying twunts would go some way to helping. Maybe paying a fair price for our commodities would be good. Possibly making sure that the food we eat and the baubles we wear aren't produced by child slaves. You know, just to show willing..."

Why? It's not as if the price we pay for bananas in the Dominican Republic, or garments in Bangladesh is going to have an impact on migrants from Eritrea or Afghanistan.

Mrs TerryPratchett the Chinese are the new "masters" in large swathes of Africa are you including their actions/foreign policy or is it ONLY the West which must shoulder the blame?

we are already under pressure to build on all our green spaces for affordable housing. it is very crowded in SE and the primary school is growing in our road with lots of extra traffic and parking.

we have had so much immigration already

what about the people sleeping rough already. no.

also all the issues and emotional baggage.

thereturn there has been no gap, since 'history'. It has been a clean line through discovery, colonialism, slavery, fight for independence, neo-colonialism, capitalist exploitation and the interference of the US and IMF/World Bank, wars for oil. There hasn't been any let-up so it's not 'way back in history'.

Yes, China is becoming just as bad.

Aga you address comodities pricing, I also mentioned neo-colonialism and the wars for oil. I will include the US' 'city upon a hill' foreign policy, preventing communism and the like.

but none of that solves the problem now
it "might" explain the reasons behind it.
but how does it stop the problem of people risking their lives and others to get to the UK.

it doesn't help the lorry drivers and car drivers who are just going about their business and find they have stow a ways.

it doesn't solve who is going to fund this if people get in illegally.

it just says who you can blame