to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

[grovel]

Well?

Racism against England has been endemic in Scotland for years and years.

I'm sorry but I can't let that statement go unchallenged. I, coincidentally am both (obviously) English (by birth) and living in Glasgow.I also until recently worked with "challenging" young people. I have genuinely experienced no bigotry. In my experience any perceived bigotry is generally people using "the English" as short hand for the Westminster government, very few people bear any malice towards all English people.

I would have actually agreed with you until recently Itsall, I remember posting on here a while back defending Scotland re racism. But I've seen a rapidly increasing amount recently.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine I can assure you that my statement is not one of fantasy - I am happy to expand if you wish but I have not seen that to be of help in this thread as it largely gets ignored unless one is able to quote statistics. Your statement implies that working with "challenging young people" would more likely expose you to racism. Isn't that a bit prejudiced and classist?

StatisticallyChallenged I would argue it has always been latent. Like sexism within an institution, if it is given credence/tacit acceptance by the hierarchy then all sorts of opinions start to emerge.

I think that's probably true. It certainly seems to be more noticeable just now.

InAtTheDeepEnd25 I do not deny you your experiences, however I disagree with your extrapolation to "racism" against the English being endemic.

Your statement implies that working with "challenging young people" would more likely expose you to racism. Isn't that a bit prejudiced and classist?

Racism requires ignorance, and these young folk were certainly not educated. Also, they were very blunt, less filter between brain and mouth - some of them very freely expressed some pretty shockingly racist views, but never about the English. They also freely pointed out my many negatives, but one of them wasn't being English...

I'm perfectly fine Itsallgoingtobefine. No need to worry, I'm just a very, very fast typist. Hence I tend to fire off rather a high number of posts very quickly.

I see very little anti-Englishness where I am, although when I was growing up there were quite a few "white settler" comments made. I actually see and hear a lot more anti-Polish racism where I live now (very different area to where I grew up).

ItsAllGoingToBeFine we will have to disagree. I would possibly suggest that if you had been exposed to Scottish culture from the grassroots up in the Glasgow of the 80s on then you would have a different perspective. I did not say blatant racism was endemic - it is much more subtle than that, and why I think the Independence rhetoric is giving legitimacy to engrained racist opinions against the English.

In my experience any perceived bigotry is generally people using "the English" as short hand for the Westminster government, very few people bear any malice towards all English people. I would agree with this but the double-standards is unacceptable - one cannot shriek racism about a whits party-goer dressed as Jimmi Hendrix for example and then excuse racism against a nation by explaining that it is towards a political minority.

"it is towards a political minority"

I'm not really sure that you can characterise a powerful, well-connected elite as a "minority" in that way.

Criseyde I presume you are talking about the last Labour Government? Or has your anti-Tory true self finally emerged from behind the front of informed impartiality?

I would never suggest that the last Labour Government didn't comprise a powerful, well-connected elite.

Criseyde so by dint of this then any Scottish Government would be a "powerful, well-connected elite" within an independent Scotland? Or have we finally reached Utopia where being Scottish in an independent Scotland negates this?

I don't find Scotland a particularly tolerant country. Perhaps I am being harsh in mistaking comments for lack of tolerance. But I'm often shocked at how intolerant others are of differing political choices and even small things, like which newspaper you choose to read, or which tv channel you watch the news on.

Its funny that a poster above criticised The Telegraph as not being an independent paper. When I bought it once, a Scottish friend beside me remarked "Why are you buying that? Are you English?"

I would never think of that amount of detail, ie remarking on someone's choice of which newspaper to read. But on here I've read so much criticism of various newspapers, the only one it seems that you are safe to read is the rather dire Daily Record, which is short on words. In a newspaper. Nice and simple, but never criticised for such.

In Glasgow, the sectarianism is well known I thought. I've heard of people not wearing certain colours in the street for fear of being beaten up, or avoiding certain colours of car for similar reasons!

InattheDeepEnd Criseyde so by dint of this then any Scottish Government would be a "powerful, well-connected elite" within an independent Scotland? Or have we finally reached Utopia where being Scottish in an independent Scotland negates this?

I would also like to know why becoming independent would suddenly enable the Scottish Parliament to crack down on fraud in Edinburgh. Its very blatant. At least Westminster is doing something about the scandals there. Almost everyone knows about the scandals and corruption in Scotland, but turn a blind eye. Presumably because it might spoil the vision of Utopia.

DeepEnd, I wouldn't try to characterise any governing body anywhere as a vulnerable "minority". I think it's pretty disingenuous. Perhaps it would be better if everyone avoided metonymy?

Again, Chelsy, I don't entirely understand what you mean by tolerance. Earlier you seemed to be implying that more Scottish people should vote Tory because otherwise the relatively slim percentage of people who voted Tory might feel a bit lonely. If you want to convince people of the need to vote for a right wing parts, you're going to have to convince them of the value of right wing policies, not just intimate that they are making right wing voters feel left out.

Inatthedeepend

It clearly isn't just 'where I live' then, or me 'just happening' to encounter an unusual amount of bigots either.

I agree that it is worse atm. It's the worst I've known it in the 25 years I have been here (although the Braveheart demos outside the cinema where a high (low) point of racism too)

Criseyde I used the term "a political minority" not a Political minority. The metonymic inference was yours alone - there are many more influences on Westminster than the politicians. AS should know from his dealings with Mr Trump...

No the metonym you objected to was English/Westminster. I agreed it was better avoided. But I don't agree in the comparison you drew between "a political minority" and an ethnic - or any other - minority.

Criseyde others in the pro-independence debate might as the definition of minority is: the smaller number or part, especially a number or part representing less than half of the whole. Westminster to a tee, apparently.

Been out canvassing again tonight.
Yes posters everywhere, folk stopping us in the street for badges, posters etc, coming out their houses & stopping cars to talk to us, wanting to volunteer, telling us how they convinced friends & family to vote Yes as well.
2 weeks to go & results are getting better every time we are out.

64% Yes
11% No
25% Undecided

Chelsy your posting style is identical to a previous poster on Indy threads LesMisAbs so you either name changed or have a posting twin.

Don't think anyone meant you were sock puppeting on recent threads.

Well done on cutting and pasting the definition of a simple minority!

But, no, I don't think it's legitimate to draw a direct comparison between a small, powerful group of people with legislative authority, and a demographic minority who, historically, have been marginalised, and wield less political and economic power than average.

FannyFife Chelsy your posting style is identical to a previous poster on Indy threads LesMisAbs so you either name changed or have a posting twin

Jesus Christ. Not again. Why the fascination?

FWIW If I were that paranoid, I would draw similarities between yourself and Weatherall. Neither of you seem to post at the same time. You don't have the same posting style, but there are similarities.

So what? Who cares? Do you go around checking people's names in real life?

I don't give a fuck, you're the one that mentioned it back up the thread, was only replying.